1943 Water/Harbour Police

[Ben]

Gents as promised, my new addition, very rare 1943 dated water police buckle, tabs with this date on are like hens teeth Came with a KM marked belt, not sure if that was issued with the buckle but they have been together a long time, enjoy

Edited January 23, 2008 by Ben

[Ben]

Rear

[Ben]

Back

[Ben]

Makers

[Ben]

Tab

[Ben]

KM mark

[Ben]

Mark on belt

[Ben]

Set

[--dj--Joe]

Words fail.

Congrats.

--dj--Joe

[lach470]

Very cool indeed! Love the thick tab - and you can't shake a stick at that '43 date...must have been one of the last ones ever made! That is cool! Bonus getting a KM marked belt with the buckle as well! Sweet!

Congrats Ben! looks great! My example is unmarked and did not come with a belt!

Cheers!

Rob

[Paul R]

Now that is something we never see!!! Congratulations!

[JoeW]

Ben, a very nice buckle. Looks to be the mate of mine. But it was also used by the Verkehrspolizei (Traffic Police) and the color of their leather equipment was brown. So, possibly yours like mine was issued to a Traffic cop and got attached to a KM belt by someone thinking of the gold=KM connection? On the other hand, it might have been issued to a water police NCO who was transfered in from the KM and brought his belt with him. I have another steel CTD buckle like these, but it has no tab. Another I have is aluminum and dated 1940. It has a brown tab.

[JoeW]

Here is a shot of the tab. Sorry, my batteries were failing and I had to shoot quickly.......and out of focus.

[Ben]

Hi Joe, that is great thanks, always looking for info on buckles, I was told if it had come with a brown belt it would have been traffic police but now I know. Any chance of some clear pics of your tab please?

Thanks

[JoeW]

Ben, I'm sorry, but trying to make a picture at 65k is very tiresome. I can't reduce my photo for uploading here. If you want to PM me with your email, I will send you one.

[JoeW]

Ben, I will try here instead of sending it to you.

[Ben]

Many thanks for the pic Joe, I have now seen quite a few 1943 dated buckles same as this and the three has all the same characteristics. I have heard one good theory for this, they stopped the leather tabs in 1943, some producers did stamp up a few with the 43 date, rather than made a new stamp with the 43 date on it they used a 42 and missed out the 2 when they stamped it. They then stamped the three separate. If you look at the 3 on all these buckles it does make sense, what do you think?

[JoeW]

Ben, I must admit that although collecting police material for many years, I have never concentrated on the specifics of buckle tabs and dates. I can see the difference in location of the digits as you mention. I would think the stamp used by these companies would have had a dating mechanism with adjustable digits to move on for a new year. This might explain the digits out of sync, rather than explaining it by your suggestion that would be a logistics nightmare if done manually. I would think all this was done by machine. I can see the problem with leather tabs and the leather shortage that Germany was experiencing. I don't recall any 1944 or later dated tabs. Do you have or have you seen examples? Were tabs used on the sheet metal formed buckles?

[Ben]

I dont really know Joe,its just a theory, they reckon that the order to stop putting tabs on buckles came out in 1942 and a couple of makers stilll put a few on, I have not seen many at all, only really CTD, Schmole & Comp and Gustav Brehmer and in very limited numbers. I have never ever seen a tab dated 1944, now that would be a turn up for the books and would throw alot of theories out of the window

Edited February 7, 2008 by Ben

[lach470]

I agree completely with Ben on this one....I too have NEVER seen a '44 dated tab (except on reproductions)...and I have only seen a few '43 dated examples...I think you have a sound theory there Ben...interesting indeed!

Cheers!

Rob

[JoeW]

Rob, I am not disagreeing with Ben's premise. I only asked if any '44 dated tabs have been seen. I haven't seen any. But I have seen unmarked ones on late war cast zinc police buckles. With the scarcity of '43 and absence of later dates, it certainly seems logical that the police stopped using dated tabs in '43/'43. I still believe the off-set digits is best explained by an advancing dater on the logo machine. Stamping by hand would be archaic. What about buckles from the other services?

[lach470]

Hey Joe...I understand completely. I didn't think you were disagreeing with him. You mention the late war polizei buckles...I know what you mean - I have one of those with the oversized tab...so in some cases they were still using tabs past '43/'44 but I think the stampings were not in use anymore. Good question about other services perhaps using tabs past the 43/44 year.....Ben? Any ideas? None are coming to mind for me other than the late war police

Cheers!

Rob

[Ben]

Hi guys, I have only ever seen one other, and that is a Coastal Arty buckle by Gustav Brehmer, the maker mark is a mess but you can make out the 43, the stitsching goes right through it !!!