Legion Condor Panzer badge

[Jacques]

Period pictures taken in Spain then later during the war show variants of this scarce badge.

According to the first pictures taken in Spain, it seems that 2 variants exist. I don't know where they were manufactured (Locally, Lisabon, Germany ?) nor the manufacturer.

On the pictures taken later, after the return of the LC to Germany and during the war, other variants can be identified. Some still wear they previous badge acquired during Spain campaign, other got a new one to the german market, manufactured by a german firm (Otto Schickle, H. Werstein, and may be others). If anyone own a period catalog of firms proposing such badges, he is welcome to share some scans .

Here is a badge which is commonly attributed to the firm Werstein and known as original.

[Jacques]

Here is a picture of an NCO of the Pz.Rgt.6, which I think illustrate the wear of the above badge variant.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Are you familiar with the Otto Schickel strike?

Otto Schickel LCTB: Proof Of One

The Otto Schickel piece is the ONLY piece I'm aware of that has proof back to a manufacturer's catalog.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Brian von Etzel

[Jacques]

Here is the illustation of the wear of the Otto Schickle variant. this manufacture is easy to recognise because of the leaves which are well cut.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Certainly appears to be. Now if you could enlarge the die flaw on the right lower bone, we'd be certain.

[Jacques]

badge from Otto Schickle's catalog shown on the links presented by Brian.

Differences can be observed between the badge and the catalog, due to the fact that it is a drawing. For exemple, on the catalog , the panzer seems to be on a ground, which is not encontered on the real badges. Moreover the reverse is never shown , so it is difficult to determine the system of attachment.

[Jacques]

Here are two badges which look like Otto Schickle catalog.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Here is the hinge from a real Otto Schickel piece

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

And here is the hook from a real otto shickle piece

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

but the final comparison is not in vague comparisons but in the die flaw on the bone

[Jacques]

but the final comparison is not in vague comparisons but in the die flaw on the bone

Are you so sure of this flaw on the catalog badge ? On the catalog, it is not a picture but a drawing. there is no reason to show on a drawing for a catalog (advertising) such a detail, which is not a proof of quality for the firm.

I do not contest the originality of the badge nor its Schickle manufacture appartenance; the obverses look similar. the two badges I shown look similar too, except the reverse of which the pin is different.

jacques

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Yes, Rick and I are convinced this is a Photograph on the catalog, not a drawing as you suggest. I forget the style of photo but it was quite common practice. Perhaps Rick will illuminate what I have forgotten as the photographic style.

As to what you call ground in the illustration I do not believe to be the case.

I see the exact lines in the area where the tank meets the badge and this what you call ground I see as as simply background of the photo.

I'm sorry you missed the entire thread on the other forum.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Now look at the badge and you will see the lines of attachment below the tank. Differences due to hand finishing of the badge.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Brian von Etzel

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

NOTE : We owe our knowledge of the this manufacturer to Gordon Williamson!

[Jacques]

I didn't miss the thread on WAF.

As I said previously, I agree your badge look the same as on the catalog. the 2 I shown have a pin of which the form look close to some Juncker's pins. That is just a way of relexion, and not an assertion .

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

No arguement here. Nor would I expect all the pins to be necessarily the same or the hooks. I am a real fan of obverse and reverse die characteristics as I've seen too many badges of the TR perfectly fine with different pin/catch hardware.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Rick was very interested to see the hinge. Apparently a common 30's style hinge.

[Guest Darrell]

Hey Jacques,

Here's another one for you

[Guest Darrell]

..

[Guest Darrell]

...

[PKeating]

I'd only trust the original Portuguese-made badges - which are ultra-rare - and the German-made type as distributed to members of the Condor Legion's armoured element after their return to Germany in 1939, when the unofficial badge conceived by Ritter von Thoma was accorded official status by OKW and the tankers received certificates and at least one badge each.

I accept that Schickle made retail versions of the badge or, at least, planned to and would be prepared to accept that other makers might have included the badge on their lists but the kind of image like the one from the catalogue shown here is simply not detailed enough to be able to tell if a badge that looks like it is, in fact, identical.

The same applies to the photo of the reipcient posted by Jacques. We can see that he wears a type of badge seen on the market but a definitive comparison between the badge in the photo and a badge in the hand, so to speak, is simply impossible. Anyone could hold up high end fakes resembling the badges in the catalogue image and the photo and claim them to be the same but they could not prove it beyond reasonable doubt.

The Condor Legion Tank Badge has been extensively and convincingly faked since the 1950s. Furthermore, some of the better fakes or repros might be legitimate post-WW2 copies made for veterans, either for retail or to order by the veterans' associations. Unless one of these badges is identical to known originals of the Lisbon or 1939 award pieces, then I am afraid that there will always be a doubt.

PK

Edited September 26, 2005 by PKeating

[Peter J]

Anyone care to comment on these images?

KR

Peter

[Peter J]

2nd image

[Peter J]

3rd image

[Jacques]

Personnally I don't like too much the 2 last one.