Legion Condor Panzer badge

[PKeating]

Just to illustrate my last point, look at these three Heer Para Badges by C E Juncker. From left to right, Type 1, Type 2 and Type 3. The wreaths all look a bit different, don't they? Well, they were all struck on the same set of dies, used in 1937/38 and again in 1943/44. They're just finished differently around the edges.

PK

[Gordon Williamson]

There is an apparent die flaw visible in the half-tone picture but the picture has been printed in half-tones and then, I would say, retouched .............

PK

I think Prosper is right here, the supplement photo being more accurate, and any retouching more likely on the half tone. To prove the point, look at the supplement photo of their U-Boat Badge - absolutely perfect.

[Gordon Williamson]

Now look at the half tone, retouched around the eagles claws and they have even added a tiny swastika to the flag on the U-Boat !!!

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Brian,

Could we see your badge as a whole? There is an apparent die flaw visible in the half-tone picture but the picture has been printed in half-tones and then, I would say, retouched so who is to say that evidence of a die flaw was not added by someone who wished to validate a die flaw on badges that looked like Schickle products? These fakers and forgers are a cunning lot, you know! The image on the catalogue page posted by Gordon seems untouched and is a better photograph than the half-tone one yet I cannot see any traces of the die flaw. It seems strange that traces of a die flaw would be left intact by an art room retoucher, doesn't it? I also can't see any die flaws on the badges posted by Jacques. And nor can I see any traces of any die flaw in the close-up of the Shickle badge in the wartime photo. So, if your badge was struck on the same dies as the badges in the unretouched catalogue photo, the wartime photo and the two studies of badges in collections, then it must postdate all those badges. Gosh! This is like the Steinhauer & L?ck thing, isn't it? I believe Otto Schickle was in business after WW2.

PK

The photo only just appeared from Gordon within the past few months. I have had this badge for 30 years. You want to make this like the S&L thing or is this the tongue in cheek thing... Are you trying to bait me with this? "it must postdate all those badges"??? I'm afraid I see photos of badges that have no provenance to any catalog but you're making these comments about the only one that does? That's interesting logic.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

And forgive me because I really don't know where you're going with this but I do see the flaw in the supplement photo.

Perhaps Gordon will be good enough to post a much high res picture of the LCTB only from the supplement.

Edited September 26, 2005 by Brian von Etzel

[PKeating]

Sorry Brian. I didn't mean to upset you. As I have not actually seen your badge as a whole, I cannot agree that it resembles the badge in the half-tone, retouched image but I don't doubt you. I would like to see obverse and reverse views of it because I am interested in seeing it.

Having a badge for thirty years just means that it has been around since 1975. I really can't see the flaw on the badge in the photograph from the original wartime catalogue posted by Gordon Williamson. All I see are pixels. Perhaps Gordon can scan the relevant bone and post a high res close-up.

PK

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Thank you for not wishing to "upset me". I am not. But thank you for asking, that is very kind.

Edited September 26, 2005 by Brian von Etzel

[PKeating]

Brian,

Thanks for your PM. Having found pictures of your badge on another website, I would say that if the half-tone catalogue photo dates from 1940, then your badge appears to be an absolutely genuine 1940 period example by Otto Schickle. There are some apparent minor differences, like a slight disparity in the angle of the tanks, but given the number of other ways in which the badges appear to be identical, the tank angle difference could be down to photographic distortion. There again, an enterprising faker might have given the 1940 image to a die-cutter who copied the obverse as faithfully as he could but made the inevitable errors of perspective because he was working by hand back in the early 1970s rather than with the laser technology of today...which still isn't perfect. But this is just hypothesis. The badge is probably OK.

PK

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Thank you Prosper, but given, again, the fact that no one inside a circle of several thousand had seen the Otto Schickle catalog until Gordon brought it up, that might be giving the fakers a lot of credit.

[PKeating]

How can we be sure of that? Given the intellectual level of the majority of Third Reich militaria collectors - calling to mind George Petersen's immortal remark about "the dirty fingernail brigade" - one doubts if they would understand what they were looking at even if they saw a period reference work. Most of them can hardly get it together to study contemporary reference works. Not that there are many worth studying, of course. Joking aside, you cannot assume that other copies of this catalogue do not exist or have not found their way into the hands of nefarious people. Forgers go to quite amazing lengths sometimes to set up their scams, believe me. I knew some of the best in the business around a quarter of a century ago and I regularly see their products on internet and at shows, and in collections. I mean, if you really want to flirt with paranoia, who's to say that someone didn't make a badge and then fake a catalogue? Easily done, if you know what you're doing.

PK

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I find it most difficult to believe fakers were relying on obscure catalogs when real badges and fake badges were to be had and cast copies made. To create a die from a half tone photo and recreate to exactitude is a bit beyond the imagination.

[PKeating]

Maybe. Perhaps the creation of a half-tone photo from a well-made fake is a more credible hypothesis. Just kidding, Brian! Joke! But it is always as well to explore the possibilities and never to underestimate the criminal initiative and imagination where there is money to be made. One can never reproduce a die exactly and cast copies are always detectable because they are smaller than the originals. What better, then, to produce a variant and then produce proof to back it up? The fakers have been doing this with Third Reich stuff since the 'sixties and probably the 'fifties. Some crooks even became 'authors', producing entire books primed with photos of "variants" and "prototypes" of items they had had made and which they punted out to carefully chosen buyers. This was before the internet, of course, and the revolution it brought in the form of exchange of information between collectors. But these issues have been discussed at length in the past. If the half-tone image really dates from 1940, then your badge probably dates from 1940 too.

PK

[Jacques]

Does somebody has pics of other variants than the 3 already discussed here ?

jacques

[Pete A]

There is a one for sale at the next Hermann-Historica auction, lot nr. 900. Says it's the 1st version.

Pete

[PKeating]

Lot Nr.900

Feldwebel (Sergeant First Class) Nicolaus Lechner

medals and citations

Tank Badge of the Legion Condor in silver (1st version), hollow stamped. Pin is a contemporary replacement, one of the lower petioles is broken off. Including the certificate for 17 June 1940 with Colonel

This badge has the same kind of pin repair as the Neumann badge but is in much better condition.

PK

[PKeating]

Reverse:

[PKeating]

Here are the Neumann and Lechner badges side by side. The late Bill Stump, who had seriously studied these badges back when the period was more accessible through living witnesses and so on, had this to say about the Lisbon badges:

This badge is a touchy topic. Therefore, I am not going to make any statement other than to give my person opinion. According to the information I have, the 1st type badge was made in real silver, in Portugal, and I have never owner a specimen of this badge. The die was broken after only a few (unknown number) of badges were produced. the 2nd type badge was struck from silvered non-precious metal. The metal was reported as being "new silver" by some sources [PK note - Klietmann]. In any event, it was stamped from thin sheets of metal. Examples of this type badge are like the badge I posted. Prosper Keating also had a similar 2nd type badge. Only 415 Condor Legion panzer badges were bestowed.

A close friend and former driver for Oberst von Thoma, then Unteroffizer Ernst Bartz, years later assisted Roger James Bender as an advisor during the research and production of his book, LEGION CONDOR .. UNIFORMS, ORGANIZATIONS AND HISTORY. He furnish hundreds of photographs and answered as many questions about the Panzer troops "Drohne". According to Roger, Bartz verified the type badges used and issued in Spain during the Spanish Civil War.

Now how do we know how many of these 2nd type badge were actually produced? Were other variations produced during the period from 1939 to 1945? I can't answer these questitions and I have yet to hear from anyone else who can. Jorg Nimmergut thinks so and lists a number of variations in his book, DEUTSCHE ORDEN UND EHRENZEICHEN BIS 1945. Uwe Lautenschlager in his magazine article seems to think so.

However, for me, I would not accept any badge other than the 1st type, which I don't know of any today, or the established know 2nd type like I posted, like Prosper once owned, and like Ernst Bartz wore as a Condor Panzer Legionnaire. The rest, unless they come with an iron clad province, would just not be for my collection. Why would I want or anyone want a problematic badge if they could get a badge that is unquestionably the type I am calling the 2nd type?

By "2nd Type", Bill meant the German-made badges actually awarded to Condor Legion tankers in Berlin in 1939 and 1940. A typical minimum production run at the time for any firm tooling up to strike badges and medals was five hundred units. With just 415 recipients of the badge to consider, it seems unlikely that the OKH would have ordered up more than the equivalent of two or perhaps three minimum production runs. Perhaps they just ordered enough for the recipients, hence a firm like Otto Schickle and perhaps one or two others (according to photographic evidence) seeing the chance to make duplicates for retail sale to the recipients.

Regarding the Type 1 badge from Lisbon, it was reported by some sources that the die broke and that a second die had to be made. So this is true, it means that there were in fact Type 1a and Type 1b badges. Now, if you look very closely at the Neumann and Lechner badges, you can see slight differences in the teeth and the bones. The Neumann badge is too worn to afford a really fruitful comparison but the differences are there. So, are we looking at Type 1a and Type 1b badges here, or is there a more sinister explanation? Once the Lisbon die broke, was a second die made by the supplier to fill the order?

PK

Edited September 27, 2005 by PKeating

[Jacques]

Is that the same group which was to sell by Weitze ?

Beautiful group, but not for my wallet

[PKeating]

If it is, and it seems to be, then someone is breaking up the group. Vandals!

PK

[Gordon Williamson]

Perhaps Gordon will be good enough to post a much high res picture of the LCTB only from the supplement.

I'm afraid this is as big as I can get and I'm not sure its that much clearer.

[PKeating]

Correction: the vendor isn't breaking up the group but the estimate is ?13.500,00, which is a lot but which is the market price. The Naumann badge and 1940-dated certificate were offered at $10,000.00 a couple of years ago and found a buyer quite quickly, so I gather. I remain curious about the differences between the Naumann and Lechner badges. Are these due to different dies as a result of die breakage?

PK

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Thanks Gordon I appreciate the photo. I can clearly see the flaw on the bone. But then, I guess I've always been an easy mark for punters in the late sixties early seventies. Thanks again your contributions are very much appreciated to this sport.

[Jacques]

I hope that other ?anufacturer's catalogs will pop up soon !

[dond]

Here is another nice looking one.

Don

[dond]

The reverse.

Don