Antique Firearms?

[Guest aviator]

Many years ago it was accepted that an antique firearm did not require a licence or a Firearm Certificate, and a common definition of an antique was anything over 100 years old. Muzzle loaders were exempted from registration, as were pinfires and large bore rimfires for which ammunition was not available.

Times have changed, and replica muzzle loading pistols are now available which are just as lethal as cartridge weapons. Reloading tools are easily obtained, and even obsolete cartridges can be reloaded. Where is the line now drawn between firearms that are prohibited, and those that are not?

Age can no longer be used as a classification. The Luger celebrates its centenary in 4 years time and the "broomhandle" Mauser 7.63mm is already 10 years past it.

Ammunition? Cartridges for the Velo-Dog haven't been made for nearly 100 years but if you have some (and some collectors do) this little pistol could still be lethal. Ditto for many pinfires, available up to .45 calibre. Perhaps readily obtainable ammunition is part of the definition.

Firearms dealers are now an endangered species (official ones that is, apparently anyone with Continental contacts can easily buy a Kalashnikov or Tokarev) so collectors frequently trade between themselves. How are they to know whether a particular weapon is prohibited? Don't even think of asking at your local police station; anything with a butt at one end and a hole at the other is classed as dangerous, and if I was at the receiving end of it I would probably feel the same. Many rare and valuable museum pieces have been crushed and cut up during recent amnesties, and I shudder to think of the fate of the Enfield Lock pattern room.

Anyone out there with some answers?

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[Guest Atilla Jones]

Firearms legislation in this country is a mess. There is apparently a home office web page setting out the parameters, since Blunkett is in charge don't get optimtistic flame . The obsolete cartridge rule seems to be fairly all over the place, I'm amazed what is available 'Off ticket'. I have a 1870 Mauser carbine, completely legit, likewise the full rifle version. BUT I've seen some comparatively modern stuff still not needing a ticket, e.g. WW1 French rifles. As for de-acts I'm not comfortable about nasty tinny East Bloc sub machine guns going for fifty quid :excl:

[Guest aviator]

Thanks to Attilla for his comments, I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels there is some confusion in the present definitions.

The Met Police web site http://www.met.police.uk/firearms-enquiries/faq2.htm attempts to be helpful but concludes by saying " In reality every case will need to be judged on its own merit." Their definition of "Breech loading firearms capable of firing a center (sic!) fire cartridge" being outside the Antique category is definitely questionable, as is their definition of a modern firearm being one manufactured during or since the Second World War. Hands up all those who thought that the Colt .45 1911A1 was a modern weapon

The Home Office has published "May 2004 CONTROLS ON FIREARMS A Consultation Paper" which includes the following

Antiques
Nothing in the Firearms Acts applies to any
“antique firearm” that is held as a “curiosity or
ornament”. “Antique” is not defined in law but
the Home Office provides published guidance on
what might constitute an antique gun (known as
the “obsolete calibre” list). This effectively covers
those firearms which do not use readily available
ammunition. Many antique guns are not
particularly attractive to criminals and have not so
far featured prominently in crime. Further
controls on antiques would only be likely to
penalise people with a genuine interest in
collecting antique guns. We do not therefore
believe that regulatory changes are necessary. Do
you agree?

This seems to refer the definition to the "Obsolete Calibre List" which, so far, I have been able to find. I will continue to search.
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[Guest aviator]

Apologies for the typo at the end of my last post. It should, of course, read that I have been unable to find the Home Office Obsolete Calibres List on the Internet. Possibly this is a hardcopy only publication.
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[John]

Sounds very complicated. Does this mean that the legislation is changing? Very worrying. Over night , one of us could be in trouble for what we legally possessed yesterday!

[Nick]

I agree the legislation is a total mess with bona fide firearms owners the ones who have suffered and criminality and gun crime higher than ever. flame

With regards the antique element it is strange that if you possess an item and it falls within the legislation as an antique possessed "as a curiosity or ornament" no licence is needed. However if you take the same firearm and decide you want to play with it i.e. a smooth bore musket that sat on a wall for the last 10 years and put black powder in it to see how it works, you then require a licence !!

But to answer your question on obsolete calibres

Here is the link

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs/policeguide.pdf

Go to Annex 5 for the list.

[Biscuit Brown]

Its such a shame that Ligitimate gun owners were penalised in this country, especially when it changed nothing. Gun crime in this country(uk) is at its worst ever.

[Guest aviator]

Many thanks to Chairman for the web link. I think this document provides as good a definition as we are going to get, pending further legislation, and seems to provide scope for most legitimate collectors firearms.
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[Guest Atilla Jones]

But watch out, our Lords & Masters are sure to want to have a swift dabble at firearms control again. Blunkett needs at least one new interfering idea per week. flame