Pre-WWI Spanish order to German Navy Captain

[GREAKLY]

Gentlemen,

Recently I have purchased Spanish Naval Merit order (2nd Class Breast Star, white distinction, 1870-1925 type) with original presentation box. There is an inscription on the upper lid/cover of the box, which reads as follows: "Al Cap. C. De La M. A. Mr. M. Sachs". With some help from my Spanish friend and some imagination I have transcribed it as "Al Capitan Corvette de la Marina Alemania Mr. M. Sachs" (sorry about my Spanish spelling; I know it's awful). In English that should read as: "The Corvette Captain of the German Navy Mr. M. Sachs".

It is my understanding that "Corvette Captain" ("Corvetten Capit?n") was, actually, an officer's rank in the German Navy. Can anybody advice if it's possible to research the guy? The type of the order suggests that it was given sometime between 1870 and 1925. Given the political situation after 1918, most likely (but not 100% though) the order was issued before the end of WWI. Do you know if it's possible to look up the guy through the rank lists? Has there been some well-known event when a number of German Naval officers received such awards?

One more thing. While I am pretty sure that my decyphering of the inscription is right, there is something that bothers me. If the awardee was German why the sign says "Mr.(!!!) M. Sachs"? Wouldn't it be more natural to write "Herr M. Sachs"? On the other hand, given that the rest of the inscription is in Spanish, "Mr." doesn't make much sence anyway. Besides, the only other two options I could think of for "M.A." would be "Argentinian Navy" (makes no sence) and "Austrain Navy" (not sure how "Austria" spells in Spanish and, again, problem with Mr. vs Herr). And, afterall, last name "Sachs" sounds as German as it gets...

Any help, thoughs, ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Edited June 1, 2008 by GREAKLY

[Paul C]

I checked my 1913 Germany Navy Ranklist and find only one Sachs listed. He is a reserve Kaplt and his only award is the LD2, which is for 10 years of reserve service. I then to think the person you are seeking is not in the Germany Navy.

[Bernd D]

I do not think the name is Sachs. I suggest Korvettenkapit?n Sack. (Out of the list of M. Bodeux)

He got the Spanish order 18th August 1888.

[Guest Rick Research]

But Sack's initial was not "M."

If you can get a clear camera shot of the inscription that is the only thing which will resolve multiple issues of deciphering handwriting.

Otherwise, all speculation is futile.

The ENGLISH abbreviation for Mister throws some doubt on which navy it was as well.

[hipnos]

Gentlemen,

Recently I have purchased Spanish Naval Merit order (2nd Class Breast Star, white distinction, 1870-1925 type) with original presentation box. There is an inscription on the upper lid/cover of the box, which reads as follows: "Al Cap. C. De La M. A. Mr. M. Sachs". With some help from my Spanish friend and some imagination I have transcribed it as "Al Capitan Corvette de la Marina Alemania Mr. M. Sachs" (sorry about my Spanish spelling; I know it's awful). In English that should read as: "The Corvette Captain of the German Navy Mr. M. Sachs".

It is my understanding that "Corvette Captain" ("Corvetten Capit?n") was, actually, an officer's rank in the German Navy. Can anybody advice if it's possible to research the guy? The type of the order suggests that it was given sometime between 1870 and 1925. Given the political situation after 1918, most likely (but not 100% though) the order was issued before the end of WWI. Do you know if it's possible to look up the guy through the rank lists? Has there been some well-known event when a number of German Naval officers received such awards?

One more thing. While I am pretty sure that my decyphering of the inscription is right, there is something that bothers me. If the awardee was German why the sign says "Mr.(!!!) M. Sachs"? Wouldn't it be more natural to write "Herr M. Sachs"? On the other hand, given that the rest of the inscription is in Spanish, "Mr." doesn't make much sence anyway. Besides, the only other two options I could think of for "M.A." would be "Argentinian Navy" (makes no sence) and "Austrain Navy" (not sure how "Austria" spells in Spanish and, again, problem with Mr. vs Herr). And, afterall, last name "Sachs" sounds as German as it gets...

Any help, thoughs, ideas would be greatly appreciated.

In correct spanish this transaltion can be write. Al Capitan de Cobeta de la marina Alemana, Mr??(Why, if he is german), M. Sachs (Could be English? Marina Americana: - M. A.-) That only for thinking about.

Miguel

[Guest Rick Research]

You're right-- American is probably more likely, given the German family name. And "English" would be "Ingles," right, so that would be an "I" not an "A"?

[hipnos]

You're right-- American is probably more likely, given the German family name. And "English" would be "Ingles," right, so that would be an "I" not an "A"?

I was meaning that the name could be and English name (not german so it explained the Mister (Mr.). "Au lieu" de Herr (Hr.)

Greetings

Miguel

[GREAKLY]

The picture is attached. I don't think the order was awarded to an American. I am not to good in Spanish (hipnos, please help), but wouldn't US Navy spell something like "Marina Esados Unidos dos Americanos"? I mean, Marina Americana (American Navy) is not exactly the same thing as US Navy. Or is it in Spanish?

[GREAKLY]

More thoughts on the "Mr" issue. Given, that the rest of the inscription is in Spanish, couldn't it just be that all orders given to foreigners bear "Mr" inscription? I mean, do you really think, that based on awardee's nationality they would have written in each case "Mr", "Herr", "Msr", "Sg" and etc?

[hipnos]

More thoughts on the "Mr" issue. Given, that the rest of the inscription is in Spanish, couldn't it just be that all orders given to foreigners bear "Mr" inscription? I mean, do you really think, that based on awardee's nationality they would have written in each case "Mr", "Herr", "Msr", "Sg" and etc?

This mean exactly this: United states American Navy must be directly translated as: Marina de los estados unidos, but in habitual talking "Marina Americana", that in they exactly translation is.: "American navy", represent the same thing.

More in these Times, after the Spanish naval forces defeat at Cuba and Philippines; the American navy became a Great Power and for extension any mention to an Navy in the American Continent only can refer to the US Navy...so the wide appelative: "American navy" or Marina Americana.

The use of the treatament "Mr." is characteristical of the epoch. They never mind to name an American (officially) Sr or "se?or?, but Mister. (of Course!)

Happy to be of some help. Please if some concept are unclear, please drop me a line and I?ll be keen to made it understatable for you.

Regards

Miguel

[GREAKLY]

Miguel,

Thank you very much for your help. Could you please answer a few more questions:

More in these Times, after the Spanish naval forces defeat at Cuba and Philippines; the American navy became a Great Power and for extension any mention to an Navy in the American Continent only can refer to the US Navy...so the wide appelative: "American navy" or Marina Americana.

Given the relationship between Spain and US during that time frame (1875-1925) do you think an American naval officer could have received Spanish order? If so, do you know of any specific occasions?

This mean exactly this: United states American Navy must be directly translated as: Marina de los estados unidos, but in habitual talking "Marina Americana", that in they exactly translation is.: "American navy", represent the same thing.

Even though the "US Navy" was "Marina Americana" in the common language was it possible to say that on a more official level? Like in newspapers or government documents? I mean, for instance, between 1917 and 1991 most Russians were commonly called "Soviets", yet it was more of a jargon word, and all official documents would always refer to the USSR and never to Soviets. Was it that same with "Marina Americana" vs "Marina de los Estados Unidos"? For example, could the king of Spain in his official speach addressed to the US sailors say "Marina Americana", or it was more of a slang word?

The use of the treatament "Mr." is characteristical of the epoch. They never mind to name an American (officially) Sr or "se?or?, but Mister. (of Course!)

Was this attitude applicable only towards Americans or any other foreigners? How would someone from France or Italy be called? "Sr" or their native name for that?

Thank you again for your help.

Gregory

Edited June 2, 2008 by GREAKLY

[hipnos]

Miguel,

Thank you very much for your help. Could you please answer a few more questions:

Given the relationship between Spain and US during that time frame (1875-1925) do you think an American naval officer could have received Spanish order? If so, do you know of any specific occasions?

Even though the "US Navy" was "Marina Americana" in the common language was it possible to say that on a more official level? Like in newspapers or government documents? I mean, for instance, between 1917 and 1991 most Russians were commonly called "Soviets", yet it was more of a jargon word, and all official documents would always refer to the USSR and never to Soviets. Was it that same with "Marina Americana" vs "Marina de los Estados Unidos"? For example, could the king of Spain in his official speach addressed to the US sailors say "Marina Americana", or it was more of a slang word?

Was this attitude applicable only towards Americans or any other foreigners? How would someone from France or Italy be called? "Sr" or their native name for that?

Thank you again for your help.

Gregory

I?m trying to contest you point after point.

1/ Well, you know, for many Spanish people the lost of cuba and Philippiones was a sort of relieve. The last colonies are supported as a matter of national pride and was very expensive in human, political and monetary terms...

And as you know the span of time the reward can be give make probable that it could be give ten years later when the things aren?t so "hot", or better they are absolutely normalized...

2/ I was nor saying that "Marina americana" is a type of slang ( that?s could be "Marina yanqui" = Yankee Marine). I was saying that the normal people (of good breeding too) speak Normally of Marina Americana (as US Navy), and everybody understand this. In no way could be considered Jargon. (Nor dismisive)

3/ As I can elucubrate we must consider that the official concession of the award...(that is the paperwork), surely deals with the appropiate wording of "Capitan de la Marina de los Estados Unidos de America", but the box and the Star in it could be a present of friends as a token of friendliness (they can bought the cross in a Jeweler, with better quaility instead of Give the Offcial award )...So they ask for a more "normalized" (not so protocolary/red tape) writing on the lid box

As I have not see the piece, I don?t know if their quality support my appreciations...

I?ll repeat the all this is only some elucubrations on the matter.

Happy if I could be of some help

Regards

Miguel

PS/ Sorry for my self-learned english

[GREAKLY]

Hipnos (and others),

Thank you very much for your help.