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Hi Guys and Girls.

I'm new to this game of collecting Imperial Aviation memorabilia and I am concidering buying a Soldbuch and Flugbuch to a pilot who was in (A) 217 squad for the last couple of months of the war.

In his Soldbuch it is entered that he was in the "nebenstehender abt" of the squadron.

Am I correct in guessing that his job was to fly as a protection pilot to an observer plane in an Artillery obs unit?

thanks

Glenn.

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Hi Guys and Girls.

I'm new to this game of collecting Imperial Aviation memorabilia and I am concidering buying a Soldbuch and Flugbuch to a pilot who was in (A) 217 squad for the last couple of months of the war.

In his Soldbuch it is entered that he was in the "nebenstehender abt" of the squadron.

Am I correct in guessing that his job was to fly as a protection pilot to an observer plane in an Artillery obs unit?

thanks

Glenn.

He maybe flies a two sitter for artillerie reconnaissance. But if you read his Flugtagebuch you will know.

Is the pilot badges registered in hi Soldbuch?

Regards

alex

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These two documents from WWI and three others from the post-WWI era?

"1) a 3-3/8 x 5-1/2 inch 20 page Milit?rpa? or service record issued to Karl.......S..... by the 4th Badische Feldartillerie Regiment 66 on 1 June 1917. Also included as a separate item in this pass are S.... demobilization certificate from Fliegerhorst Graudenz as well as two separate service records from the Royal Prussian Flying Squadron 217.

2) a 4-1/8 x 6-1/8 inch 48 page Flugbuch or log book issued to Karl........S... by Fliegerschule Schneidem?hl on 20 March 1918. "

Observation units fell into two basic categories. One relied on external protection and support from other flying units. The other had pilots within the unit that flew alongside the observation aircraft.

From the documents, it appears the grouping you're interested in, falls into the second category. He flew an Albatross single seater (looks like a D5a) from the photo, and the small script that I can see and read. His EKII was most likely awarded for taking part in flight operations at a late stage of the war. If he actually scored a victory in combat, he'd have been awarded an EKI, not an EKII. Consider his award a recognition by his superiors that he flew in a combat zone, and survived. :unsure:

Nice set of documents.

Les

Edited by Les
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These two documents from WWI and three others from the post-WWI era?

"1) a 3-3/8 x 5-1/2 inch 20 page Milit?rpa? or service record issued to Karl.......S..... by the 4th Badische Feldartillerie Regiment 66 on 1 June 1917. Also included as a separate item in this pass are S.... demobilization certificate from Fliegerhorst Graudenz as well as two separate service records from the Royal Prussian Flying Squadron 217.

2) a 4-1/8 x 6-1/8 inch 48 page Flugbuch or log book issued to Karl........S... by Fliegerschule Schneidem?hl on 20 March 1918. "

Observation units fell into two basic categories. One relied on external protection and support from other flying units. The other had pilots within the unit that flew alongside the observation aircraft.

From the documents, it appears the grouping you're interested in, falls into the second category. He flew an Albatross single seater (looks like a D5a) from the photo, and the small script that I can see and read. His EKII was most likely awarded for taking part in flight operations at a late stage of the war. If he actually scored a victory in combat, he'd have been awarded an EKI, not an EKII. Consider his award a recognition by his superiors that he flew in a combat zone, and survived. :unsure:

Nice set of documents.

Les

Thanks Les,

so no red flags as far as you can see?

Glenn.

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Thanks Les,

so no red flags as far as you can see?

Glenn.

Glenn,

The set seems to be a good and honest grouping. I don't see anything to be worried about. It all looks solid. There are dealers who wouldn't hesitate to marry decorations and other items to the grouping, and with none there, that hasn't been done. Everything there has his name on it, with the appropriate formation stamps, etc.

If you can check with someone who has a WWII Luftwaffe Ranglisten, they could tell you if he was on active or reserve duty during the early part of the war. The "Segel" document in the group could be a between the wars document (the NSFKK was big on glider training), or duty as a glider instructor during the first few years of the war.

If you can wait a day or two, I'll check the Grub Street series of Jasta and other pilot's to see if he's in there. I'll also check some of the other sources I have and get back to you.

Les

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Glenn,

The set seems to be a good and honest grouping. I don't see anything to be worried about. It all looks solid. There are dealers who wouldn't hesitate to marry decorations and other items to the grouping, and with none there, that hasn't been done. Everything there has his name on it, with the appropriate formation stamps, etc.

If you can check with someone who has a WWII Luftwaffe Ranglisten, they could tell you if he was on active or reserve duty during the early part of the war. The "Segel" document in the group could be a between the wars document (the NSFKK was big on glider training), or duty as a glider instructor during the first few years of the war.

If you can wait a day or two, I'll check the Grub Street series of Jasta and other pilot's to see if he's in there. I'll also check some of the other sources I have and get back to you.

Les

Thanks Les,

that would be awsome!!

Glenn.

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Glenn,

So far "S" didn't show up on the Grubstreet Jasta pilot's roster. I didn't expect he would. The Jasta pilot listings are typically for fighter pilots, and the guys who flew bombers, observation planes and the like aren't included as part of those listings.

The Fliegerabteilung "A"(rtillerie) pilots can be sometimes found if you have access to unit diaries and/or histories.

FA(a) 217 is given a very brief sketch here: http://www.frontflieger.de/2-faa217.html

These names are provided: Fritz Kaplick,, Siegfried Kroepel, Paul Freiherr von Pechmann (+ 1955), Paul Rieper.

Pechmann and Rieper were both aviation OBSERVERS awarded the Pour le Merite. By the way, now go back and look at "S's" papers and enshrined in his demobilization notation is a period signature by Paul Freiherr von Pechmann who it would seem was acting C.O. at the end of the war, and it would have been his responsibility to sign S's release from service papers. There were only eight observers and one ballon pilot that received the PlM during the war, and this document has one of those fellows signature on it.

I can't say for certain, however the chances there is a unit history for FA(a) 217 is very high...given that the unit had two observers who were awarded the PlM. The unit history would list all pilots, observers, etc and lots of other details.

Karl Heinrich was in a good unit, and his grouping seems to be getting better by the moment with a little checking on some of the background information. :love:

I'll see if I can turn up more for you. This may take -awhile- for me to make a few enquiries.

Not bad for a first venture into WWI aviation collectables.

Les

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Glenn,

So far "S" didn't show up on the Grubstreet Jasta pilot's roster. I didn't expect he would. The Jasta pilot listings are typically for fighter pilots, and the guys who flew bombers, observation planes and the like aren't included as part of those listings.

The Fliegerabteilung "A"(rtillerie) pilots can be sometimes found if you have access to unit diaries and/or histories.

FA(a) 217 is given a very brief sketch here: http://www.frontflieger.de/2-faa217.html

These names are provided: Fritz Kaplick,, Siegfried Kroepel, Paul Freiherr von Pechmann (+ 1955), Paul Rieper.

Pechmann and Rieper were both aviation OBSERVERS awarded the Pour le Merite. By the way, now go back and look at "S's" papers and enshrined in his demobilization notation is a period signature by Paul Freiherr von Pechmann who it would seem was acting C.O. at the end of the war, and it would have been his responsibility to sign S's release from service papers. There were only eight observers and one ballon pilot that received the PlM during the war, and this document has one of those fellows signature on it.

I can't say for certain, however the chances there is a unit history for FA(a) 217 is very high...given that the unit had two observers who were awarded the PlM. The unit history would list all pilots, observers, etc and lots of other details.

Karl Heinrich was in a good unit, and his grouping seems to be getting better by the moment with a little checking on some of the background information. :love:

I'll see if I can turn up more for you. This may take -awhile- for me to make a few enquiries.

Not bad for a first venture into WWI aviation collectables.

Les

Hi Les,

Thanks somuch for your help,

I was hoping that Signature would be someone I can Research.

I done the dive and brought the Doc lot-I'm guessing I will not be dissapointed.

when I get the group I'll try and post some pics of interesting pages.

If you do find any more info I'd be very gratefull.

I'm guessing my next purchase will have to be the sanke card of Pechmann.

thanks again

Glenn.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Les,

Thanks somuch for your help,

I was hoping that Signature would be someone I can Research.

I done the dive and brought the Doc lot-I'm guessing I will not be dissapointed.

when I get the group I'll try and post some pics of interesting pages.

If you do find any more info I'd be very gratefull.

I'm guessing my next purchase will have to be the sanke card of Pechmann.

thanks again

Glenn.

Glenn can you now (since you bought the items) reveal S's full last name. I got the Karl Heinrich bit.

Thanks, Rick

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Hi Rick,

sure,

its Karl Heinrich Herman Schnitger. He went as Heinrich Schintger.

its a nice set but after talking about dealers adding on things unfortunatly the photo was not with the group and when I querried them they said "we just added a photo to the website togive people an idea of the type of plane he flew".

thats a bit annoying as I thought it would be neat to make a model of the plane with the items.

I'll post some pics when I can as I will need some help with the types of planes he trained in.

I've got 90% but the others are a bit obscure.

Seems his later flights were in an albatros CV and all his other plane were also 2 seaters so the photo but me astray as he never was in the type pictured!!!

I thought something might be up when I googled Albatros and got the same photo as on the document listing but I thought it might be a common postcard.

Ow well...

I'll try and post some pics soon.

Thanks

Glenn.

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  • 1 month later...

Glenn (nedkelly 1973):

Still hoping to see some of the docs you obtained for this fellow. Especially an aviation service record.

Thanks, Rick

Hi Rick,

I've tryed to no avail so it will not be happening untill I get someone around to see what I'm doing wrong.

PM me your email address if you want and I'll try and email them to you.

thanks

Glenn

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Hi Rick,

I've tryed to no avail so it will not be happening untill I get someone around to see what I'm doing wrong.

PM me your email address if you want and I'll try and email them to you.

thanks

Glenn

Glenn, did you get my E-Mail address OK ? R.

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