Organisational Badges Hj Badge

[nesredep]

Hello!

I just wonder what yuo think about this one!? Thank you.

All the best

Nesredep

[nesredep]

Hello!

The last photo.

All the best

Nesredep

[Colin Davie]

Of the 2 badges I know of where the original recipient is known the plate holding the pin is long and a rectangle, not like this one at all. See Detlev Niemann's book for a good pic.

Also I observed when I held a ruler along the top line of the "H" in Hitler the "D" of Jugend was still fully visable... i.e. the "D" is higher up the badge than the opposite "H".

I myself would not buy the one shown, that's all I could say, originals are a rare badge and quite expensive.

C

[XEN]

It takes a long neck for someone to say anything definitive about these badges Colin and we have discussed this before. The internet can be a powerful thing but it should always be used with caution and with respect for its influence and I for one would love to see your evidence and I mean EVIDENCE and not the 'wisdom' you have seen on some forum and now see fit to plagiarise and purvey as the truth. I'd love to see anyone's evidence on these badges actually. The usual comment of 'all HJ distinguished foreigner badges must have a brown border and no maker name' comment stems from one US collector who apparently scored two such badges from a veteran. In my book there is definitely room for more research but you now seem comfortable enough to begin criticizing pin plates and geometrics.... Please enlighten us and name your irrefutable source.

[Guest WAR LORD]

I would comment, that all the known originals that I have seen, this is possibly around 10 have been of the exact same designe. This badge shows a number of subtle differences, the lettering being one. The font is slightly different as well. So on this alone the badge is not from the same die as the known originals. The reverse shows many varriations, rivits and rivit holes being most marked. The pin plate is of different designe. The finnish is very poor compared to an original. The original has a fine guilded finnish, remanisant of that found on a Golden Party badge. The is NO FLUX on the reverse were the pin plate and rivits have beeen applied. One could go on. In my opinion, there would have only been one maker of this badge. A very small number of bestowals. Two dies would not be required. These awards are of the highest rarity.

To the possible option for the badge shown. A number of these badges were put on the collectors market in the late 70's, these included badges with other colours. I saw and was offered what proported to be a sample card with 3 of these badges in different colours by Dr J Milestone. The thought was that these had been produced in Austria and were indeed fantersy pieces. My gut reaction is that this piece shown is from this stable.

[Colin Davie]

It takes a long neck for someone to say anything definitive about these badges Colin and we have discussed this before. The internet can be a powerful thing but it should always be used with caution and with respect for its influence and I for one would love to see your evidence and I mean EVIDENCE and not the 'wisdom' you have seen on some forum and now see fit to plagiarise and purvey as the truth. I'd love to see anyone's evidence on these badges actually. The usual comment of 'all HJ distinguished foreigner badges must have a brown border and no maker name' comment stems from one US collector who apparently scored two such badges from a veteran. In my book there is definitely room for more research but you now seem comfortable enough to begin criticizing pin plates and geometrics.... Please enlighten us and name your irrefutable source.

Hi gary, I apologize for not answering before, I am looking for info on another badge I have just obtained (not HJ, but political) and just noticed this thread had been added to.

Gary your tone is very brash, and I'm no shirking shiela, but frankly, I can't be bothered with it, so I will give my "evidence" and then that's it from me to you on this.

I have NOT given any difinitive statement, perhaps you could point out in my post above where I have made such a "carved in stone" point?

I told the guy what MY OPINION is of the badge shown and why I personaly would'nt buy it... if your opinion is different that's cool.

Your rant about some US collector, veteran blah blah blah.... what planet are you on?

What collector? Where are you getting this from?

I got ONE of these badges from an original recipient he lived close to a family friend on mine in Norway, he was a skiing champion, all other of his items were burnt or otherwise disposed of by his mother, this badge survived because he had it on a civilian jacket he owned and she missed it... I was promised it when he died, he died, I got it, it had a brown border, it had no maker mark, it had a very distinctive pin plate, it matches the one in Detlev Nieman's book and the original ones Warlord is going on about.

I had one other, bought from an English dealer, it matched the one above, but the silvering had mostly come off the eagle.

You have your Aurich, one of the multi colour samples that showed up in the 70's (along with the multi colour HJ member pins)..... the long time dealers I spoke to told me they are copies, Warlord, a long time collector with IMO the best political collection on the planet does'nt like them and calls them copies, Manions sells them as copies.

Of course we are all just conspiring wrongful evidence, because you have bought one and you believe it might be original.... did you obtain it from an original recipient? is it shown in Detlevs book, god knows he must have seen hundreds over the years.. why did'nt he ever sell one or obtain a photo? Manions the masters of bending reality, sell these as copies.

In fact is there any other EVIDENCE on YOUR Aurich badge other than you like it?

You don't believe it all?, I don't care.

Your Aurich badge in my opinion is a copy as alluded to by Chris (Warlord) and everyone else above.

You don't believe it? I don't care.

Gary it is impossible to PROVE a badge is not original, all we can do is compare to known originals and make, I suppose an educated guess based on that comparitive study.

I told you already.... if I went to my shed and made an original quality, pink enamelled NSDAP badge for female members, no-one could prove it was not original, sad thing is it would probably sell though.. to someone such as yourself...... given the evidence.

All the best in your collecting Gary.

C

[XEN]

Hi Colin,

I can see from your post that you still don't understand what I said above and elsewhere. I'll admit that the tone of my post is a little unfriendly - as is yours incidentally - but in my defence it gets quite frustrating trying to discuss a matter with someone whose argument is based wholly on something I never said and who runs away in a hissy fit because someone 'dared' to question.

This and the other discussion have nothing to do with my badge. If you read my posts you'll see that. I have never attached any authenticity to my badge and nor will I unless I find proof that this type is either fake or period and believe me I'd be happy either way. All I'm searching for is that often elusive evidence.

So yes, we were discussing this particular badge but (for me anyway) only to illustrate a point which is this (and it ain't rocket science of course...): these forums are full of 'wisdom' which is not always based in fact and only becomes 'wisdom' because enough people agree (or need to agree because they have money tied up) and then go on to spread that 'wisdom' around the internet. Eventually 'wisdom' becomes 'fact' even when the true origin lies often in half-'truths', downright lies, stories, supposition, anecdotes, subjective experience and often quite amateurish 'detective work'. Nevertheless, if repeated often enough these things can have the power to convince large sections of the collecting community of an item's authenticity (or otherwise) and thus influence their decisions on whether to part with often large sums of money or not. This is nuts and is what I was exploring. As you say, it is often impossible to meet all of the requirements on a given item which would allow one to state that it is 100% period and that is where discussion can play its part and it should never be stifled through silly comments like 'You don't believe it? I don't care.'

You can't, by your own admission, make a watertight case FOR your brown Distinguished Foreigner because your evidence consists of subjective experience, anecdotal 'evidence' and comparison with 'known originals'. You're not alone in this dilemma of course as it applies to many, many of the things we collect but if you ever sell your badge you'll no doubt describe it as an original even though you admit that this can't be proven. Mad hobby isn't it? Almost as mad as your theory about the pink party badge. Now if you'd said 'pink Distinguished Foreigner'.....

For my part I've decided that this game is too risky for me. I've stopped collecting and will be going back to my books and to the history because they satisfy my need to know that what I see and hear can be cross-referenced and proven. The only items I'll be keeping are those where I can prove that they are period and believe it or not that is sometimes possible!

I hope this discussion proves useful to anyone who turns it up on a search.

Cheers.

Edited February 27, 2009 by XEN

[Stephen Adams]

Posted in error

Edited February 27, 2009 by Stephen Adams

[Colin Davie]

Hi Colin,

>I can see from your post that you still don't understand what I said above and elsewhere. I'll admit that the tone of my post is a little unfriendly - as is yours incidentally

My tone only gets unfriendly after your post, and I think I am entitled to be a bit pieved.

>This and the other discussion have nothing to do with my badge.

Personally, I think it matters that you do have a dog in the fight.

>So yes, we were discussing this particular badge but (for me anyway) only to illustrate a point which is this (and it ain't rocket science of course...):

Ok, so can you let me see on this particular badge where in my first post I made all these rules you are accusing me of making?

>You can't, by your own admission, make a watertight case FOR your brown Distinguished Foreigner

because your evidence consists of subjective experience, anecdotal 'evidence' and comparison with 'known originals'. You're not alone in this dilemma of course as it applies to many, many of the things we collect but if you ever sell your badge you'll no doubt describe it as an original even though you admit that this can't be proven. Mad hobby isn't it? Almost as mad as your theory about the pink party badge. Now if you'd said 'pink Distinguished Foreigner'.....

So recieving a badge from the original recipient in Norway is not a case "FOR" the brown bordered unmarked badges?... You see, that satisfies me, in regard to what was actually awarded, I did,nt expect it to satisfy you, because it is clear from your attitude that unless you yourself get it from the hands of the recipient you won't believe.. and it is that disblelief that I don't care about, IMO the uncaring is not silly.

By my own admission, I cannot make a watertight case AGAINST your red marked badge, please don't get the 2 mixed up... and yes you do have them mixed up,... because there was nothing posted by me in this thread that justified your response.

>For my part I've decided that this game is too risky for me. I've stopped collecting and will be going back to my books and to the history because they satisfy my need to know that what I see and hear can be cross-referenced and proven. The only items I'll be keeping are those where I can prove that they are period and believe it or not that is sometimes possible!

What criteria makes the accepted "original" Assmann badges "period"?

What criteria makes the countless unmarked wound badges "period"?

Well lets make this interesting...

You posted for sale a Croatian membership badge recently..

Please provide the watertight evidence of authenticity you demand of me and everyone else that the badge you offered for sale was "period".

C

Edited February 27, 2009 by Colin Davie

[Stephen Adams]

Sorry I'm trying to load a picture, but I can't get it.

Stephen

[Guest WAR LORD]

Possibly to help, this is a known fake. I think the first piece has been "doctored" from such a piece. This gives rise to the reverse as seen on the first posted piece.

[XEN]

Colin,

You're trying to second-guess me instead of just sticking to the matter at hand. If you want to continue to believe that I have a 'dog in the race' then there is nothing more I can do to change that. As far as being unfriendly goes I would refer you to your performance on the thread in the Hitler Youth forum which predates this discussion....

I'm not 'demanding' anything of you. I'm simply making a general point on proof and evidence.

I could give you individual answers on the points you made in your last post but I'm going to cut to the chase to illustrate what you seem unable to understand so let me ask you a question on the Croatian DJ in return:

Can you prove that the badge is a fake?

No, you can't and so we're back nicely to the point I've been making all along. I've researched the Croatian DJ to the best of my ability and with the resources available to me and I'm happy that it is a good original. If you have any evidence to the contrary please feel free to post it.

Actually though I could make the whole thing easier by just telling you that the badge came from a veteran of the Croatian DJ. Your approach to collecting would seem to dictate that you would have to swallow the story because subjective experience is evidence according to you. Your subjective experience is worth nil as soon as that badge leaves your collection.

Basically what you are saying about the badge in post #1 is this: 'I got my badge from a vet - your badge doesn't look like mine and one other where the recipient is known - so yours is likely to be a fake...'. Is that really enough? Is that irrefutable evidence? No, of course it isn't but it doesn't stop huge amounts of money changing hands.

I'm out of here.

[Colin Davie]

I think your Croation badge is original as well, I never said anything different.. see you jump to conclusions... it's a rare badge, and I just wanted to see an example of this criteria of originality you think is so important in action, proof I knew you would be unable to provide.... and it is as I expected, you like it so it's good.

Collectors digging a trench to defend a fake they've bought is nothing new, and I look forward to your sales discription (and price) on your red badge the same as that posted above by Warlord..

BTW, how is it Warlord gets to call your badge a fake and you say nothing? Consider the post above yours and your response (or lack thereof)

You have'nt addressed a single post he's made, never asked him for a single scrap of "evidence", nothing... this is all about ego Gary, you just don't like the fact I argued against you on your HJ forum.

C

Edited February 28, 2009 by Colin Davie

[XEN]

I didn't jump to conclusions. The way you worded your question made it sound as if you doubted the originality of the Croatian badge. I wasn't about to leave that hanging in the air.

I haven't answered any posts made by Warlord because

a. They weren't addressed to me personally. I certainly can't see a post which refers to me or addresses anything I said.

b. I already know about the red badges and for the tenth time - I am not discussing my badge here anyway. I am making a general point about proof and evidence.

I have no intention of selling the red badge. At the moment they are viewed as fakes and selling fakes isn't my style.

This has nothing to do with egos. Certainly not with mine anyway. It's about the truth - or rather the search for it. You left our forum in a hissy fit which was your choice. No-one asked you to leave and as far as I know you're still a member and are welcome to contribute to the forum whenever you wish.

You don't have the answers on the brown DF and all you are doing is clutching at anything which will add to the only evidence you have:

1. I got it from the vet personally.

2. It looks like the other badge with a known recipient.

Again. Is that enough information for you to go onto a forum and tell someone effectively that their badge is a fake (post 1 in this thread)?

[Colin Davie]

Edited because finally he admits he has bought a copy.

And gary, don't tell me I can't give an opinion on a badge, I can and if I choose to I will, I never used the word fake.. please read my post again and see I only recommended not buying the badge, and BTW that post was'nt addressed to you personally, so funny you responded then..

Yes pity the thread can't just be locked as it was in the HJ forum, and finally after nearly a year you admit you might have made a mistake.

C

Edited February 28, 2009 by Colin Davie

[XEN]

The implication is there even though you didn't actually use the word and you know it. Please note your use of the word 'considered'. That's not proof and therefore means only this:: any BROWN (BROWN) badge which does not look like yours or the other badge from a known recipient is a fake. That's pretty arrogant actually and I can easily imagine why such a stance may be necessary...

I'm talking in general terms about money changing hands by the way and not specifically about his badge.

[XEN]

Edited because finally he admits he has bought a copy.

And gary, don't tell me I can't give an opinion on a badge, I can and if I choose to I will, I never used the word fake.. please read my post again and see I only recommended not buying the badge.. yes pity (for you, the way this has gone) the thread can't just be locked as it was in the HJ forum.

C

Where did I say that I bought a copy? I said that the red badges are currently considered to be fakes.

Of course you are free to spread your wisdom around the internet as you see fit. I'm only asking you to consider the impact of this wisdom and also to consider whether you are actually right...

I'll refrain from going down to your level so no insults from me. I have much better things to do with my time.

Edited February 28, 2009 by XEN

[Colin Davie]

I recommended not buying the badge, everyone else can make their mind up if I was right, and we'll leave it there then.

Cheers

C