Shoulder boards

[ccj]

Can someone post a chart of the flecking used by the various States in Germany?

I know the Prussian, Bavarian, Saxon, Wurttemburg, Hessian, Mecklenburg, had special flecking but are there others? Most principalities wore Prussian flecked boards didn't they?

If I missed a thread discussing this and showing examples please let me know.

[ccj]

To make it even more educational can we post the cockade color configurations along with the flecking?

[Chip]

Charles,

There are a few addition dart colors (Faden - literally "threads") out there that you did not mention. First, the Baden colors, red/yellow appear on certain types of straps. The ones that I have seen were non-official officer's types. The two examples I can remember were a medical doctor's boards and the commander's board of the J?ger Rgt.Nr.3 (Ralf von Rango). I think this was a personal choice, especially in the case of von Rango, who was leading a mixed regiment of Prussians, Bavarians and Badeners.

Another type is the blue darts of the Beamten. All Beamten, regardless of their home state, had the blue darts. They are often mistaken for Bavarian darts. It's the state Wappen that is the identifying mark on a Beamten board.

The addition of the white darts to those that had previously only had one color (blue/white, black/white, etc.) came with M15 Feldachselst?cke. States with more than one color already remained the same (red/black - W?rttemberg, red/yellow/blue - Mecklenburg).

Cockades changed over time, depending on the period. What time frame are you interested in?

Chip

[ccj]

Charles,

There are a few addition dart colors (Faden - literally "threads") out there that you did not mention. First, the Baden colors, red/yellow appear on certain types of straps. The ones that I have seen were non-official officer's types. The two examples I can remember were a medical doctor's boards and the commander's board of the J?ger Rgt.Nr.3 (Ralf von Rango). I think this was a personal choice, especially in the case of von Rango, who was leading a mixed regiment of Prussians, Bavarians and Badeners.

Another type is the blue darts of the Beamten. All Beamten, regardless of their home state, had the blue darts. They are often mistaken for Bavarian darts. It's the state Wappen that is the identifying mark on a Beamten board.

The addition of the white darts to those that had previously only had one color (blue/white, black/white, etc.) came with M15 Feldachselst?cke. States with more than one color already remained the same (red/black - W?rttemberg, red/yellow/blue - Mecklenburg).

Cockades changed over time, depending on the period. What time frame are you interested in?

Chip

Chip,

I'm interested in the officer cockades from periods 1910-1915 and 1915-1918. (Actually, the war period) I have a 22nd Dragoon 1Lt tunic that has Prussian "faden". I think I saw a post J?ger Rgt.Nr.3 strap, single I think, on an old thread here. Interesting but hard to make out the colors in the post. I really don't understand why Hesse would have distinctive faden and Baden would not.

I also don't understand how one tells 1910 boards from the earlier period boards. My understanding is that older straps are larger.

Thanks Chip for your help on this topic.

[Chip]

Charles,

In 1897 along with the introduction of the Reichskokarde came a reduction in the number of state cockades with only a few distinctive smaller "state" examples left unchanged. The reduction came mainly by units changing to the Prussian cockade. To my knowledge, those cockades continued unchanged until the end of the war, with the exception of the Bavarian cockades, which had a change in their configuration (not color) in 1916. So besides the larger state cockades that everyone knows, there existed a number of exceptions as traditions cockades. The list is a bit long to type here, but if you like I can scan the pages in "Das Deutsche Heer" for you.

Regarding the shoulder boards, I assume you are refering to officer boards when you say that the earlier patterns were larger. The standard form and size of Leutnant and Hauptleute boards that we are used to seeing were introduced in 1888. Up until this time, the narrow M1866 pattern with its pointed end was worn for these ranks. I am not sure at what point the size of the boards (for the ranks of major and above) were reduced. It may well have been in 1907 or 1910 with the introduction of the new field uniforms.

Chip

[Guest Rick Research]

Here's an assortment of cap cockades

Top row the standard three piece Reichskokarde with red felt insert as worn by officers and senior NCOs.

2nd row: Prussian Reserve/Landwehr officer type (though we have seen MANY photos of this NOT being worn by dR and dL officers during the war), standard Prussian officers' 2 piece, W?rttemberg officer (oddly, black centers never have a felt inner button), Mecklenburg officers

3rd row: the circa 1916 (?) Generic Pattern cockade, here for a Prussian officer (black felt insert), Baden officers, Hessian officers.

Bottom row: Bavarian generic late war pattern for enlisted (painted center), Hamburg enlisted ranks, Saxon enlisted ranks.

[Guest Rick Research]

Imperial navy ALTERNATED a red-and-white twist with a black half V:

These will be found on naval infantry and other Marinekorps subdued boards as well. You can distinguish between a white-based summer naval officer board and one from the Schutztrupp East Africa because the COLONIAL boards kept the same half and half V designs always facing the same way, not switching back and forth as above.

Navy =

black half V, red-white half V

red-white half V, black half V

Colonial =

black half V, red-white half V

black half V, red-white half V

[ccj]

Thanks Chip,

I am referring to the officer boards. I don't know how to tell early field grade and general from war time or early war. I have read some think the larger officer straps were worn by royalty.

Rick,

Thanks for posting the cockades. I need to look at my Hesse Cockade again to see how it compares to the one posted. Can I see the reverse of the Landwehr cockade

[ccj]

I appreciate you posting an example of a shoulder board.

[Chip]

Rick,

I am fairly certain that the first cockade in the third row is a Bavarian officer's M16. The color of the middle is a blue/black. I don't think the Prussians ever used this pattern of cockade.

Chip

[Naxos]

Hessen

[Naxos]

Sachsen

[ccj]

Hessen

Are the Hessen boards backed in yellow or white? Looks to be yellow.

[Naxos]

Charles,

backed yellow.

Leutnant originally from Infanterie-Regiment Prinz Carl (4. Gro?herzoglich Hessisches) Nr. 118, transferred to the Reserve Infanterie-Regiment 224

The RIR224 belonged to the 48th Reserve-Division. The 48 RD was a mixed Division formed from recruits from Thuringa, Alsace and Hesse and remained in theory a Hessian Division.

Hardy

Edited October 12, 2008 by Naxos

[Chip]

Hardy,

The I.R. Nr.457 was Westphalian, not Saxon, and thus the Prussian colored darts on the board. The problem with this strap is that it is a model 1915 with red piping, which would indicate field artillery. I suppose this officer could have come from an artillery unit, though that seems an unlikely branch change. Could you show the back of this board?

Regards,

Chip

[Naxos]

Chip,

I don't have the back of this board - but there are two more sets from the same Hauptmann .

the back

and these with numbers removed and white second underlay.

Hardy

Edited October 12, 2008 by Naxos

[jj08]

Edited November 30, 2008 by jj08

[Naxos]

The first set of boards has W?rttemberg coat of arms and Bavarian colors.

Hardy

[jj08]

Edited November 30, 2008 by jj08

[jj08]

Edited November 30, 2008 by jj08

[Chip]

Hardy,

Even with the extra set of boards in the set, the officer is still Prussian. The other pairs do offer some clues as to what is going on here. If the Garde boards belonged to the same person, my guess is that he was transferred to the higher numbered unit after it was formed and kept his earlier boards. I have a similar board from the 426.IR. It is a M15 with the new unit number superimposed over the regimental cypher of a grenadier regiment. Somewhere, I have the AKO that authorized this.

jj08,

Nice examples. The Bavarian Landsturm medical doctor is a particularly difficult one to find. Here's my example.

Chip

[Naxos]

Hardy,

Even with the extra set of boards in the set, the officer is still Prussian. The other pairs do offer some clues as to what is going on here. If the Garde boards belonged to the same person, my guess is that he was transferred to the higher numbered unit after it was formed and kept his earlier boards. I have a similar board from the 426.IR. It is a M15 with the new unit number superimposed over the regimental cypher of a grenadier regiment. Somewhere, I have the AKO that authorized this.

Chip

Thank you Chip;

as always I really appreciate your input.

Hardy

[jj08]

Edited November 30, 2008 by jj08

[Chip]

jj08,

Landsturmpflichtige ?rzte other than Bavarian wore no shoulder insignia. The collar insignia indicated the medical specialty (?skulapstab). The rank, as you say, was denoted by (pips/Sterne). See attached photo.

Chip