Stogieman Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Well Brian, my philosophy usually is find one deviation........ I don't worry too much. But if a dozen show up on eBay or "dealer" sites in the next 6 months......... well, what can you say to that? What I find exceptionally interesting is that the commander grades of the PCO & RAO seem to languish on German dealer sites... even ones with swords. And every major auction has 3-6 RAO's in mint condition that are not touched by (assuming, yes) the most discerning collectors of same in the world. It gives me pause.Since these were not "batch" made, I expect minor differences. A "shadow" around the eagle?? Never seen that, or if I have, never noticed it. is there one around yours Brian?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 No, not so much as a hint of a shadow. And I agree you start seeing them pop up in that causes pause. Agreed. It's just the back of Claudio's looks so damn perfect. Someone needs to examine this one closely. We certainly know what a good Juncker RK looks like, we can determine without a doubt what a good RAO looks like. And expose the fakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medalnet Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Since these were not "batch" made, I expect minor differences. The fact is that they are batch made. some pieces have even sequential numbering in order to piece a series of a batch correct together. One can easily observe this with Red Eagle stars. 90% has roman numbering inside the medalion center. The golden commander crosses of the Saxon Order of Albert show this as well on the joined insde the crown.Another add to what Brian said...the paintings are indeed stencil based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 I have no trouble accepting stencil-based application of the eagle. That would not cause a "shadow" aroound the entire image though. "Batch made" might be true for a number of examples, but are you saying that every single example of the RAO2 by Wagner was made at one time over the entire history of each different variation/era?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Rick, I'm sure by 'batch' it means more than one or two, perhaps a dozen or more. Not an entire generation's worth... And as such, the stencil could change, either be more complex and ornate over time, or to save time, less complex. This would explain, and I'm glad Andreas backed up my thoughts, that a stencil was indeed used and explains why see several RAOs with near identical features. And then see another group with near identical features. It would help to see numbers awarded over time and by class. I thought Andreas had that on his site at one time but I was unable to locate it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medalnet Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Yes, sorry, batch means mini series of a specific number of pieces. I have seen roman numbering on Red Eagle Order stars as high as XXVIII = 28.I am not quite sure about the swadow. What do you mean? The black liner is stenciled, the red filled in in my opinion. This is why the later pieces mostly have faded red and missing pieces of the red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Hi Andreas, my concerns with this "shadow" as I called it:"Here better scans of the medallion, obverse and reverse. I do not have this cross in front of me (my brother has) and he told me that the hand painting of the eagle looks almost like a "decal"... man! When I heard that it raised my hair... Claudio""The design of the eagle looks good. I have to say, and I hate to say this, but there does appear to be a clear outline visible around some parts of the eagle. This could be a very carefully painted clearcoat to protect the painted design, but it looks like a decal. If you had not mentioned it, I would have never seen it. Dan Murphy"I am also concerned with a 3g. +/- discrepency in weight from Nimmergut's..... that's a pretty big difference for a gold piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 I hope this goes to someone who can give it a real qualified look! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 The colour red in old paints or pigments almost always contains lead when it pre-dates the 1960's. Lead was used to stabilize the color, provide greater adhesion to the underlying surface, and a smoother surface texture.Environmental and health concerns in most "Western" countries resulted in lead based paints, pigments, gasoline, and so on, no longer being used after 1975/1980 or so. There are still some places in the world where lead is used however...It might be possible to test known original RAO's for lead content (or the percentage of lead content) in the red colour present on the eagle design, using non-destructive methods (there are several ways to do this) to determine if original period examples contain lead in small or even trace amounts. Companies dealing with environmental matters (for example removing lead based paints from old homes), small laboratories with defraction equipment can all conduct quick easy tests for the presence of lead (usually under $10 per sample). If original pieces contain lead, then this might be a possible way to sort out the "sheep from the goats." Suspected modern copies could be tested, and if there is no lead present, the absence is a good indicator that the piece might not be all that's it's cracked up to be.Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dwyer Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 A "shadow" around the eagle?? Never seen that, or if I have, never noticed it.I may be way out in left field here, but if the eagle was applied by a stencil, if the artist didn't paint over the edges of the stencil and left the dark stencil outline around the edges of the eagle, could this account for the shadowed or decal look? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 Yes Mike and this was what I was after.A bit sloppy but a possibility. Seeing the back, I'm not ready to call this one a modern highend fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medalnet Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 (edited) Seeing the back, I'm not ready to call this one a modern highend fake.Believe me it is! I had them in my hands. Edited November 5, 2005 by medalnet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 (edited) Then that's that. Modern jewelers very highly skilled have the time and patience for high payoff fakes. And who said Imperial items were not bringing high value. Nuts.Wish I had a few more angled shots of the eagle to really get at the decal. Edited November 5, 2005 by Brian von Etzel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taurus454 Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 Just curious, what was this award given for? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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