Imperial Russia Order of Saint Stanislas

[Veteran]

Hello everyone

I came recently across this 2nd class cross of the Order of Saint-Stanislas. It looks like gold and enamels, but the design of the eagles between the arms is different from those illustrated in Werlich for instance.

Could it be considered a a legitimate award. If so, why would the eagles be so different ? Could it be a Polish make rather than russian ? What period could it possibly have been made. It looks very good indeed, but I am confused.

Every bit of information will be gratefully received

Paul

[Alex K]

Need better pictures, any chance of making them larger?

regards

Alex

[PAVEL]

Hello everyone

I came recently across this 2nd class cross of the Order of Saint-Stanislas. It looks like gold and enamels, but the design of the eagles between the arms is different from those illustrated in Werlich for instance.

Could it be considered a a legitimate award. If so, why would the eagles be so different ? Could it be a Polish make rather than russian ? What period could it possibly have been made. It looks very good indeed, but I am confused.

Every bit of information will be gratefully received

Paul

Hello

This is a model with Nicholas I type eagles (fallen wings) 1825-1855. Similar ones in The Foerster Collection dated circa 1831 , 1835 , 1845. Two sold in Moscow Dec. 2007 : 2nd class dated 1846, 3rd class dated circa 1830.

Regards

Paul

[Alex K]

The pictures are very small to identify authenticity but as pavel says, I would guess that they are early eagles

[Veteran]

Thank you ever so much for this immediate response, I am very impressed.

This is the largest picture I have managed to upload. True measurement is 53mm across and weight 23grs.

The reverse of the outstreched wings is finely engraved. How does one establish the year the cross was made ? Hallmarks ? Every bit of further information will be gratefully received, including possible names of jewellers and valuation, since such crosses have been reported sold recently.

I am most grateful for your kind help. I was really wondering if it was a legitimate badge.

Very best regards

Paul

[Alex K]

Looking at the quality, I would stick my neck out and say that it is a genuine example possibly made by Bertrand of Paris.

attached is an image I have had for a while in my archives, unfortunately no longer remember from where, looks very similar style eagles

regards

Alex

Edited October 30, 2008 by Alex K

[Veteran]

Thanks a lot, Alex. The picture you show has common features with the one I have seen, excepr for the design of the eagles, which is quite different.

The firm Arthus-Bertrand seems to have existed as early as 1840, according to JACOB (Court Jewelers of the World). Has anyone heard of Russian orders made in Paris as early as that ? A very interesting lead. I would be most grateful to Pavel if he would comment.

I am most grateful

Paul

[Yankee]

Hi Veteran

The St.Stanislas that you have pictured I'm not so sure that it is an orginal example. True where the tips of the wings touch one another that is the sure way of dating such pieces as being early. However your example shows the lower part of the Eagle not totally inserted into the center ( Talon very visible on red cross enamel ). Alex's has pictured an excellent old example. Also notice his raised wreath around the center is enamel compared to your flat painted version.

Sincerely

Yankee

[PAVEL]

Thanks a lot, Alex. The picture you show has common features with the one I have seen, excepr for the design of the eagles, which is quite different.

The firm Arthus-Bertrand seems to have existed as early as 1840, according to JACOB (Court Jewelers of the World). Has anyone heard of Russian orders made in Paris as early as that ? A very interesting lead. I would be most grateful to Pavel if he would comment.

I am most grateful

Paul

Hello all,

I replied too fast Paul, at first look your order seemed to be a "Nicholas I" model, but after a closer examination and as told by Yankee the eagles are quite unusual , same for his remark on the center. In my documentation (dozens of catalogs of the last 15 years) never seen such a model. Never heard of russian orders made in Paris during the first half of the XIXth century but am not expert in russian orders made outside of Russia . All other St Stanislaus orders I have seen of the same period have similar eagles as Alex' picture and eagles only visible on the avers (on yours : eagles on both sides).

I was ready to join three models of Nicholas I period recently sold (2nd,3rd & a quite unusual 4th class - existed only from 1831 to 1839) but am unable to get a file of 70k max. size !!! Will try again.

Pavel

[Veteran]

Thank you Yankee, Pavel and Alex

Your remarks have been extremely useful. Alex's suggestion that it might be french sent me thinking. I got hold of the badge again, forgeting about the Russian hallmarks I reported not found.

With a high power magnifying glass, I found the french hall mark for gold on the reverse of the left horizontal arm of the cross. It is a minute hallmark showing a eagle's head. Was first used in 1847 and guaranties a minimum 18 carat alloy. Could not find a jeweller's mark, but these were made compulsory only later.

I have a XIXth century catalogue from the firm LEMAITRE, showing a 2nd Class St.Stanislas which looks very much like the cross I have described except for the later eagles.

Finally, and thanks to your kind help, I think we have established the cross I showed could very well be a French made gold 2nd Class cross of the first type. Interesting since Pavel reports he has never heard of a Saint-Stanislas made in Paris at that time.

I am truly grateful

Paul

Edited November 2, 2008 by Veteran

[Yankee]

Thank you Yankee, Pavel and Alex

Your remarks have been extremely useful. Alex's suggestion that it might be french sent me thinking. I got hold of the badge again, forgeting about the Russian hallmarks I reported not found.

With a high power magnifying glass, I found the french hall mark for gold on the reverse of the left horizontal arm of the cross. It is a minute hallmark showing a eagle's head. Was first used in 1847 and guaranties a minimum 18 carat alloy. Could not find a jeweller's mark, but these were made compulsory only later.

I have a XIXth century catalogue from the firm LEMAITRE, showing a 2nd Class St.Stanislas which looks very much like the cross I have described except for the later eagles.

Finally, and thanks to your kind help, I think we have established the cross I showed could very well be a French made gold 2nd Class cross of the first type. Interesting since Pavel reports he has never heard of a Saint-Stanislas made in Paris at that time.

I am truly grateful

Paul

Hi Veteran

I suspected it was of Continental design being out of the ordinary or just simply a fake which are being flooded these days with the very high prices in the Russian market. I've seen more Russian orders in the last 3 years then I have in nearly two decades With proof of the Eagle head & catalog from 19th century certainly an old example. As for value hard to say since it is Continental manufacture probably a fraction of what a Russian made example would be, still plenty to buy a small car.

Sincerely

Yankee

[Veteran]

Yankee

I quite agree with your remarks. The present owner of this cross showed me his buying notes : it was bought in 1971 from a respected Paris dealer for the sum of .... 120 US$.

In those days, imperial Russant material was plentyful on the Paris market, and few collectors were really interested.

Thanks again; its is a pleasure to share information with such knowlegeable fellow collectors as can be found on this forum.

Regards

Paul

[Yankee]

Yankee

I quite agree with your remarks. The present owner of this cross showed me his buying notes : it was bought in 1971 from a respected Paris dealer for the sum of .... 120 US$.

In those days, imperial Russant material was plentyful on the Paris market, and few collectors were really interested.

Thanks again; its is a pleasure to share information with such knowlegeable fellow collectors as can be found on this forum.

Regards

Paul

Hi Veteran

I certainly agree what a neat forum this is to be allowed to help one another gain knowledge, from all over the world.

I have seen a few of the old sale catalogs from the 60's & early 70's and they were next to nothing & the orders were of extreme rarity. Sad to not have been born sooner but not too early. Have you noticed where Russian orders from the early-mid 19th century are turning up all over auctions. Where have all the early-mid 19th century Austrian orders gone? Is it just because the Austrian Monarchy was so stingy & cheap that they didn't bother to hand out so much awards to their citizens.

Sincerely

Yankee

[Guest Rick Research]

I do not know what Hapsburg practice was, but in Germany Orders were generally supposed to be returned on the recipients' deaths-- which can shockingly cut down on the numbers theoretically still "out there," at least from the late 19th century Rolls I've worked on that show returns.

Foreign recipients were most likley to have not followed through on returns, being decades and decades out of touch. I've seen German Orders Chancery "Inspector Javerts" making notes on "what--not dead YET?" recipients down to their current street addresses to be able to send out the return demands as soon as an obituary appeared in their local newspaper! :speechless1:

[Yankee]

I do not know what Hapsburg practice was, but in Germany Orders were generally supposed to be returned on the recipients' deaths-- which can shockingly cut down on the numbers theoretically still "out there," at least from the late 19th century Rolls I've worked on that show returns.

Foreign recipients were most likley to have not followed through on returns, being decades and decades out of touch. I've seen German Orders Chancery "Inspector Javerts" making notes on "what--not dead YET?" recipients down to their current street addresses to be able to send out the return demands as soon as an obituary appeared in their local newspaper!

It would seem the Russian orders had never to be returned or if so the monarchy never enforced it, explains why so much floating around and never see modified/refurbished. Fascinating to learn how some countries eagerly chase down their recipients orders as soon as the holder dies.

Thanks

Sincerely

Yankee

[Alex K]

Thank you Yankee, Pavel and Alex

Your remarks have been extremely useful. Alex's suggestion that it might be french sent me thinking. I got hold of the badge again, forgeting about the Russian hallmarks I reported not found.

With a high power magnifying glass, I found the french hall mark for gold on the reverse of the left horizontal arm of the cross. It is a minute hallmark showing a eagle's head. Was first used in 1847 and guaranties a minimum 18 carat alloy. Could not find a jeweller's mark, but these were made compulsory only later.

I have a XIXth century catalogue from the firm LEMAITRE, showing a 2nd Class St.Stanislas which looks very much like the cross I have described except for the later eagles.

Finally, and thanks to your kind help, I think we have established the cross I showed could very well be a French made gold 2nd Class cross of the first type. Interesting since Pavel reports he has never heard of a Saint-Stanislas made in Paris at that time.

I am truly grateful

Paul

Bertrand of Paris did produce eastern European decorations and in my opinion added his own touches to then hence the slightly different eagles.

Attached are two examples of the Romanian Order of the Crown, (OK one's got the wrong ribbon), the Fifth class made in Romania, the fourth gold class made by Bertrand, notice the subtle differences on his award.

regards

Alex

[Josef Rietveld]

I do not know what Hapsburg practice was, but in Germany Orders were generally supposed to be returned on the recipients' deaths-- which can shockingly cut down on the numbers theoretically still "out there," at least from the late 19th century Rolls I've worked on that show returns.

Foreign recipients were most likley to have not followed through on returns, being decades and decades out of touch. I've seen German Orders Chancery "Inspector Javerts" making notes on "what--not dead YET?" recipients down to their current street addresses to be able to send out the return demands as soon as an obituary appeared in their local newspaper!

In AH they followed the same practice. All Orders made of Gold (exept the Golden Merit Crosses) hat to be returned to the orders-chancery. The heirs had the possibility to buy the orders if they wanted to keep them.

This practice of restitution continued till the early 1940ies from where quittances are known.

In the chancery the orders were reissued (I have a 1860 Iron Crown reissued to a swedish citizen in 1912/13), repaired/adapted (I had a 1860 Iron Crown where the war decoration was perfectly removed) and reissued or

melted.

as far as i know this practice didn't apply to foreign recipients.

regards

josef

Edited November 5, 2008 by Josef Rietveld

[Yankee]

Bertrand of Paris did produce eastern European decorations and in my opinion added his own touches to then hence the slightly different eagles.

Attached are two examples of the Romanian Order of the Crown, (OK one's got the wrong ribbon), the Fifth class made in Romania, the fourth gold class made by Bertrand, notice the subtle differences on his award.

regards

Alex

Hi Alex

Thanks for posting the Romanian Crown's. Always interesting to see how the foreign made differs. I'll try to dig up a scan of a Bulgarian military order also made by a French firm and you can certainly see the change from the Bulgarian/Austrian design. Interesting to note that the French produced a lot of insignia for Eastern Europe.

Sincerely

Yankee

[Alex K]

Hi Alex

?Interesting to note that the French produced a lot of insignia for Eastern Europe.

Sincerely

Yankee

On a slight side note, attached is a Romanian Order of the Crown, 3rd class commander which does appear to have floated around the better part of Europe before finding it's final home!

To summarise the marks on this badge:

These are the markings stamped o the piece

Small ring:

- KF - indicating Karl Fischmeister of Vienna?

- swan - French import mark?

- A with a dot beneath - Vienna city assay office mark

- unknown - could be an Austrian mark for silver

- dolphins - Romanian mark for silver

Suspension loop:

- two As (I did not understand whether there is one mark with two As, or two marks each an A) - unknown yet

This is an interesting collection of marks. It could indicate a badge manufactured in Austria, sent to Romania and subsequently awarded to a Frenchman and therefore exported to France.

Edited November 7, 2008 by Alex K

[Alex K]

Continued

[Yankee]

Hi Alex

Those are really great close ups. fascinating to see all those foreign markings on one order. Never knew the Romanian Crown order could be made in gold, suppose it was a private purchase.

The Bulgarian Bravery order also of French make has a lozenge on obverse side of flame.