What Order is that worn by Earl of Athlone at the end of His medal rack ?

[lilo]

Hello All,

Very recently a very kind forum member supplied me with the below photo of the : Earl of Athlone, then Prince Alexander of Teck, ca 1904 (see below).

I should have correctly identified the Sash + badge and breast Star (in the photo indicated with the Nr. 1 and the Red arrows) worn Prince of Teck, as the Grand Cross of the Wurttemberg, Order of the Wurttemberg Crown.

1^st Question:

Am I correct with this identification ??

2^nd Question:

Which Order is that at the end of His medal rack ?

(in the photo indicated with the Nr. 2 and the Orange arrow)

The choice is limited considering the datation of the photo (1904) and that the other two Orders He had at that time were :

1. Netherlands, Order of Orange-Nassau, 1904;

2. Coburg, Ducal Saxe-Ernestine House Order, 1904.

Which between the above is represented as the Breast Badge (with SWORDS) at the end of His medal rack ?

Awaiting to hear from you

Best Regards

Lilo

Edited February 2, 2009 by lilo

[Wild Card]

Hello lilo,

Yes, you are correct. Nr. 1 is the badge and star to the grand cross of the Order of the W?rttemberg Crown. Nr. 2 is quite probably an Ernestine knight first or second class. There is something of a distant family tie there, isn?t there? Is there any reason why he would have the Netherlands? award?

With regard to the Decoration worn at the neck, it could be related to the unidentified star being worn beneath the W?rttemberg star.

Regards,

Wild Card

[JBFloyd]

The second breast star and the neck badge are insignia of a knight commander, Royal Victorian Order.

[Arthur R]

Is there any reason why he would have the Netherlands' award?

His wife, Princess Alice, whom he married in 1904, was first cousin of Queen Wilhelmina (their mothers were sisters, princesses of Waldeck-Pyrmont), so there was a connection.

[lilo]

Hi Wild Card / Jeff / Arthur,

Many thanks for your prompt help !

Best Regards

Lilo

Edited February 2, 2009 by lilo

[Wild Card]

His wife, Princess Alice, whom he married in 1904, was first cousin of Queen Wilhelmina (their mothers were sisters, princesses of Waldeck-Pyrmont), so there was a connection.

That might be good enough. The thing is that when you get into family relations, politics and protocol,

things tend to go from black and white to shades of grey.

Speaking of shades of grey, to my old eyes the arms of the cross appear to be pure white (Ernestine)

without any blue centers (Orange-Nassau).

[saschaw]

Speaking of shades of grey, to my old eyes the arms of the cross appear to be pure white (Ernestine) without any blue centers (Orange-Nassau).

I see the same, but why would he wear it with swords? All that sounds pretty much like a peace time "dynastic" award. From what I know SEHOs were not given with swords to anyone in uniform as other states did. So why...

:unsure:

[Wild Card]

Hello lilo,

Honestly, the more I look at that piece, the more I am convinced that it is an Ernestine and it certainly does have swords.

Ernestines with swords are really not all that uncommon; and as far as awards to ?foreigners? go, Zar Ferdinand of Bulgaria

was awarded the grand cross with swords of the Ernestine Order on 15 March 1916 (his badge which is completely set with

diamonds is a classic example of... well, something) - probably another case of ?family relations, politics and protocol?.

Speaking of which, I mentioned in your other thread that Arthur Duke of Connaught ?...held the collar to the Order of the

Black Eagle, the Pour le Merite and the grand commander?s cross (again, a collar) to the King?s House Order of Hohenzollern,

all of which are Prussian orders?. While the Black Eagle and Hohenzollern are understandable, does anyone know what he did

to get the Pour le Merite? George Seymour once referred to the Duke observing the bombardment of a port from the deck of

a Prussian warship.

Perhaps some of the Saxon experts (Rick, Stogie...?) can clarify this awards to foreigners issue. Incidentally, have you checked

with any of the British experts? I would think that his award list would be in British archives.

Regards,

Wild Card

[saschaw]

Well, the 1916 (WWI !) award to Zar Ferdinand is not really odd, he was the chief to an allied army in war... but the Pour le Merite to the Duke of Connaught again sounds very odd.

Back to the Ernestine, may it be they were given to foreigners with rules as some foreign orders have?! Swords in peace time, if given to a military was not common in Germany. Hessen did that with the "Philipp" but stopped it in the 1890s(?). I don't know any other state or order with such a rule...

[lilo]

Hello Wild Card / Saschaw,

Wild Card

I have answered your questions in the 'proper' thread of the Duke of Connaught, see : http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=33750

Saschaw

Obviously you are right that the 'Ernestine' order given to the Earl of Athlone should be that 'WITHOUT Swords' because given in time of peace (ca 1904) and frankly it was a surprise for me to see him wearing that with the 'swords' in the above photo. Notwithstanding, assuming that the Order in the end of the medal rack of Earl of Athlone is that of the 'Saxe-Ernestine House Order', and now I have no more doubt on this, we have however a photographic evidence that the Earl of Athlone indeed received that with the 'Swords' although we cannot understand the reason why.

Anyone can explain the reason why Earl of Athlone received the 'Ernestine' Order with the 'Swords' ???

Regards

Lilo

Edited February 3, 2009 by lilo

[James Hoard]

Hello lilo,

Honestly, the more I look at that piece, the more I am convinced that it is an Ernestine and it certainly does have swords.

Ernestines with swords are really not all that uncommon; and as far as awards to "foreigners" go, Zar Ferdinand of Bulgaria

was awarded the grand cross with swords of the Ernestine Order on 15 March 1916 (his badge which is completely set with

diamonds is a classic example of... well, something) - probably another case of "family relations, politics and protocol".

Ferdi the Fox was hardly foreign. He was a Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, though from the Catholic branch of that family.

The Saxe-Coburg-Gotha Dynasty ruled in the duchy itself, but also rovided the ruling dynasties of the UK, Portugal, Belgium and Bulgaria.

[Guest Rick Research]

"we have however a photographic evidence that the Earl of Athlone indeed received that with the 'Swords' although we cannot understand the reason why"

Ah, your image is so incredibly small and distant that it just as well could be the Order of the Carnivorous Forest Voles of Trans-Nistra Dontatkreuz for all that we can s-e-e.

PLEASE post LARGER CLOSEUP scans.

[James Hoard]

Ah, your image is so incredibly small and distant that it just as well could be the Order of the Carnivorous Forest Voles of Trans-Nistra Dontatkreuz for all that we can s-e-e.

Certainly not.

Only the fourth class of the Order of the Carnivorous Forest Voles of Juxta (sic!)-Nistra Dontatkreuz would ever be worn on a medal bar. Although that class also has a releief bust of a chap resembling a Civil War cavalie,r with long hair and facing left, but most telling of all is the little pimple on the end of his nose. Any fool can see that in the case of the Earl's badge, the fellow does not have a pimple on his nose.

Anyway, all classes of the Dontatkreuz order are enamelled green and white, never black and white.

One generally posts what one has.

Cheers,

James