German Officers at Gallipoli - A Puzzle

[bob lembke]

I am studying the German officers who served at Gallipoli. As you may know, it is a difficult topic; most of the German Army records have been destroyed. I have come across an especially confusing question. I thought I might pose it, our resident gurus might find this interesting.

Klaus Wolf's book Gallipoli 1915 identifies a "von Kaltenborn-Stachau" as an Oberleutnant who was with the "Pionier=Abteilung Gallipoli" in 1915, and had to return to Germany with cronic intestinal and heart illnesses. (LTC Wolf has been able to work in the Turkish as well as several German archives, he does have Turkish; I do nor know where he got the above information.) The 1914 preuss. Rangliste lists five von Kalternborn-Stachaus: a Hauptmann (27. 1. 1913 Mm) CO of 1. Kompanie, Infanterie=Regiment (8. brandenburgisches) Nr. 64; an Oberleutnant (18. 08. 1912 H6h) of the 8^th Kompagnie, Fusilier=Regiment (kurhessisches) Nr. 80; a Leutnant (14. 06. 05.) with the Garde=Grenadier=Regiment Nr. 1, described as being "k. z. Kr. Akad." on 6. 05. 1914; a Leutnant (18. 08. 1906 H6h) from the Lehr=Regiment of the Fuss=Artillerie Schiessschule, but detached to Berlin for a "Seminar fuer orient. Sprachen"; and finally a Reserveoffizier, Leutnant von Kaltenborn-Stachau, of Infanterie=Regiment (2. kurhessisches) Nr. 82 (II. Berlin).

"Wait a minute", the guru might say. "None of these officers are Pioniere=Offiziere". But I have found at least one other example of a non-pioneer officer serving with the Pioniere at Gallipoli, an officer of the Fuss=Artillerie. This makes some sense, as it might be expected that a major concern of the pioneers at Gallipoli might be digging in or otherwise helping the heavy coastal artillery at Gallipoli, perhaps repairing shelled batteries. Note that the Leutnant from the Lehr=Regiment was attending a seminar in oriental languages. I have found another pioneer officer that did serve at Gallipoli in 1915 attending the same language seminar in May 1914. (The German military mission was working full-speed in Turkey and at the Dardanelles since mid-1913, taking over the preparation of the defenses from the not surprisingly extremely lethargic Royal Navy.)

Given the above, my vote for the officer who served at Gallipoli would be the heavy artillery lieutenant. (Of course, he could have been an officer not in the 1914 preuss. Rangliste, perhaps an officer from Bavaria or Saxony.)

The von Kaltenborn-Stachau's seem like quite a military family. Any other clues that might be able to identify the "right" guy? Perhaps his illness and its effect on his further career. Of course Gallipoli was so unhealthy that men could return and recover from malaria or other illnesses and serve usefully later on the West Front. My father only was at Gallipoli briefly but contracted malaria, but served usefully in the West later, my grand-father got malaria in Russia in 1915 and was weakened for the rest of the war, and I know of another Gallipoli pioneer officer who got malaria there and was ill periodically for many years, althouhg he was able to serve into the 1950's.

I hope that this is of interest. Pardon my writing some of my post in German terms; that information would be more understandable and precise to anyone with the skills to usefully address this question.

Bob Lembke

[Guest Rick Research]

GGR 1 officer was killed in action on the Western Front in 1914.

The Foot Artillery officer had himself a nice ride to East Africa after the May 1914 Rank List came out and spent the entire war in the Schutztruppen there.

Something to bear in mind is that occasionally, just to drive us insane, information in period sources IS completely, utterly, inexplicably wrong. Research Gnomes like to at least triangulate and come up with verification from DIFFERENT sources rather than relying on one which may be--even the most Official Of Official Sources-- wrong.

Example: there were two BAD awards made by the Principality of Hohenzollern to naval officers on the famous SMS Emden. Problem was-- one of them had NEVER served aboard her (and was in Germany the entire war) and the other one... never existed.

The ASTOUNDING German habit of never using given names was as problem causing then as it is for us now.

We have to sift out chaff even from primary sources, note it, and pass it along just in case WE screw up too! :cheeky:

[bob lembke]

Many thanks, Rick. I will take a peek in the Bavarian and Saxon Ranglisten (I think that I have at least one on CD, perhaps both), in the case that the guy came from one of those armies. Or, as you suggest, the basic info may be off.

Bob

[bob lembke]

Well, not in the 1914 Bavarian or Saxon Ranglisten as a Pionier, Ingenieur, usw. Have to put my thinking cap on.

I guess the Fuss=Artillerie officer was studying a language other than Turkish at the seminar in Berlin. Swahili? (sp?)

Bob

[Naxos]

There was a Hauptmann von Kaltenborn-Stachau, commanding the III. Batl. I.R.189 in Jan. 1916 - fighting with Sturmbataillon "Rohr" at the Hartmannsweilerkopf.

"Am 8. Januar 1916 Oberstleutnant Beyer hatte f?r sein Regiment als Angriffsziel die Hirzsteinstellung bestimmt. Die Sturmtruppen waren in zwei Gruppen gegliedert. Eine N?rdliche, bestehend aus dem II. Bataillon, verst?rkt durch Pioniere des Sturm-Bataillon Rohr und Hilfswaffen unter Major Toop.

S?dlich, die aus dem um die 2. Kompanie verst?rkten III. Bataillon, einem Sto?trupp vom Sturm-Bataillon Rohr und Hilfswaffen. Ihr F?hrer war Hauptmann von Kaltenborn-Stachau"

Find the full text here: http://www.hartmannsweilerkopf.de/223238/224938.html

and here: http://www.hartmannsweilerkopf.homepage.t-...logie/chron.pdf

Hardy

Edited March 16, 2009 by Naxos

[The Prussian]

Hi Bob!

In the "Ehrenrangliste" I have found a Hauptmann v.Kaltenborn-Stachau from the Lehr-Regiment of the Fu?artillerie-Schie?schule. It was marked, his last service was in the Schutztruppe f?r Deutsch-Ost-Afrika

[Bernhard H.Holst]

Hi Bob!

In the "Ehrenrangliste" I have found a Hauptmann v.Kaltenborn-Stachau from the Lehr-Regiment of the Fu?artillerie-Schie?schule. It was marked, his last service was in the Schutztruppe f?r Deutsch-Ost-Afrika

As already indicated above and also by Rick Research Hptm. Roland Rudolf v. Kaltenborn-Stachau arrived in then German East-Afrika on bord of one of the two resupply ships dispatched from Germany on 16.March 1916, in his case the "Marie". He commanded 1.Battery and became a British POW when he fell ill on 17.Nov.1917 at Njambinding and was held later in Egypt. After WW I he became a military instructor in Afghanistan and still later a farmer in Tanganyika Territory (former German East-Africa). He died 14.Nov.1934 in Neu-Ruppin.

BTW: Then oblt. v.Kaltenborn-Stachau was assigned to the Schutztruppe fuer Kamerun (Cameroon) just before the outbreak of the war but of course could not join his new post. The stories of the two re-supply ships reaching the coast of then German East-Africa have not received their dues in my of course biased but humble opinion.

Bernhard H. Holst

[bob lembke]

Hardy;

Yes, very interesting. I am a bit of a student of the fighting on HWK, partially due to the use of Flammenwerfer by both sides, and the involvement of Sturm=Batiallon Nr. 5 (Rohr). Of course the Hauptmann von Kaltenborn-Stachau would have to be verified to be the one at Gallipoli (if indeed there was one there). I will look carefully at this. The officer of IR 80 was: Patent des Dienstgrades 28. 11. 1914 Y7y 1918 from the 1918 preuss. Dienstalters=Liste, p. 44, which also said that he retired as Major a. D., from the 1914-18 Ehrenrangliste. So the officer from IR 80 was a Hauptmann in January 1916. But I see nothing about him serving in IR 189, but of course he could have.

Bernhard;

Thank you. The story of the fighting in Africa is quite epic, and is not given its due, IMHO.

If I could come up with a picture of von Kaltenborn-Stachau of IR 80 and/or IR 189 I could see if he wore the "Gallipoli Star". I still have a few more research arrows in my quiver.

I am coming up with some interesting pre-war relationships between, at least, the Pionier officers serving at Gallipoli; I am trying to puzzle out how they were selected to be sent there, and I have tentatively identified two senior officers that may have selected the men sent there. All of this will be, one way or another, published in due course.

Bob Lembke

[Guest Rick Research]

Bob-- I have 20 years of the Bund der Asienk?mpfer magazines, which grew out of November 1918 Berlin street flyers (which I have) seeking anyone who had knowledge of missing units to turn that in to a non-governmental central data source (the printers) and WELL into the 1920s there were pension and pay problems related to Turkish service.

German personnel were required to have "resigned" from the German army (or navy) and "enlisted" in the Ottoman forces. Since Turkey entered the war very late in 1914, there were all sorts of bureaucratic squabbling over whether 1914 was to be counted as a "Kriegsjahr" (3 months of hostilities whether ever in combat or not) for double service time and pension purposes.

That was finally resolved in favor of the nudge-nudge-wink-wink "Ottoman volunteers" but it was a long hard slog getting it done. Unfortunately these were all bound and are on such horrible crumbly brown paper that I cannot scan them.

Bernhard-- I assumed he'd arrived just in time for the outbreak of the war. To have gotten there as a REINFORCEMENT in 1916 ( ) is a story that is worth a book--like the relief airship over the Sudan tricked into turning back by false radio traffic. I knew the supply ships had brought desperately needed ammunition--as well as a nice supply of Iron Crosses--but aside from the stranded one-way crews, had never heard that they had "passengers" before! FASCINATING! f

[bob lembke]

Bob-- I have 20 years of the Bund der Asienk?mpfer magazines, which grew out of November 1918 Berlin street flyers (which I have) seeking anyone who had knowledge of missing units to turn that in to a non-governmental central data source (the printers) and WELL into the 1920s there were pension and pay problems related to Turkish service.

German personnel were required to have "resigned" from the German army (or navy) and "enlisted" in the Ottoman forces. Since Turkey entered the war very late in 1914, there were all sorts of bureaucratic squabbling over whether 1914 was to be counted as a "Kriegsjahr" (3 months of hostilities whether ever in combat or not) for double service time and pension purposes.

Rick;

You had mentioned the "Bund" magazines a couple of years ago. A fascinating (potential) research (no pun intended!) resource. Are you able to read them at all? I have a book about, a useful research tool, but everytime you use it (400 loose pages between the boards), there is a shower of small fragments of browned paper. Fortunately it is actually a common book, but it still is a painful thing to see. I imagine the "Bund" editions were more about the guys who went off on the insane adventures all over later in the war, not the Gallipoli campaign, which was a bit more orderly, not stranding soldiers all over the place. Do you know of sets of the magazines over in Europe?

I was just going over a list of German officers serving in Turkey over the years, and I did notice many of the men being described as "Hauptmann xxxxxx yyyyyyy a. D.", although sent by the German Army in the 19th Century in an official capacity. Wallach, in his history of Turkish/German cooperation, went on quite a bit about the negotiations about the compensation for individual officers; I imagine that career-wise taking such a post was a bit of a gamble (especially quickly croaking from one of the many diseases). I don't have any of my father's letters from Turkey, unfortunately, but one of my grand-father's letters from Russia seems to respond to information in a letter from my father in Turkey, and it was about the unhealthy state of things. (As it turned out, they both got malaria in 1915.)

Bob Lembke

[Guest Rick Research]

Oh yes. I am decrepit enough to have learned German in Gothic typeface and Sutterlin penmanship. They are a GOLDMINE of tiny unit accounts, but of course random submissions. A series on transport units was stopped as breaching security restrictions in the early 1930s when such data was still classified!

German officers under contract to the Ottoman Empire were advanced a rank, so there was a temporary financial and career advantage-- though I doubt any of them foresaw becoming the famous Reichswehr "Turkish Mafia" whose influence was out of proportion to their numbers under von Seeckt.

Partial sets often come up for sale but the last complete run like mine I've seen was DM (yes DM) 700.

[Bernhard H.Holst]

As already indicated above and also by Rick Research Hptm. Roland Rudolf v. Kaltenborn-Stachau arrived in then German East-Afrika on bord of one of the two resupply ships dispatched from Germany on 16.March 1916, in his case the "Marie". He commanded 1.Battery and became a British POW when he fell ill on 17.Nov.1917 at Njambinding and was held later in Egypt. After WW I he became a military instructor in Afghanistan and still later a farmer in Tanganyika Territory (former German East-Africa). He died 14.Nov.1934 in Neu-Ruppin.

BTW: Then oblt. v.Kaltenborn-Stachau was assigned to the Schutztruppe fuer Kamerun (Cameroon) just before the outbreak of the war but of course could not join his new post. The stories of the two re-supply ships reaching the coast of then German East-Africa have not received their dues in my of course biased but humble opinion.

Bernhard H. Holst

In addition to above mentions of Hptm. Roland Rudolf v. Kaltenborn-Stachau I found two remarks in books where he is mentioned as having served in the Dardanelles. It is my belief that his specialty as Fussartillerist ( heavy artillery) would have qualified him for deployment in the defenses of the Dardanelles Straights..

Bernhard H. Holst

[bob lembke]

In addition to above mentions of Hptm. Roland Rudolf v. Kaltenborn-Stachau I found two remarks in books where he is mentioned as having served in the Dardanelles. It is my belief that his specialty as Fussartillerist ( heavy artillery) would have qualified him for deployment in the defenses of the Dardanelles Straights..

Bernhard H. Holst

Very, very interesting and useful, Bernhard. I had guessed that he would have been the von Kaltenborn-Stachau that served at Gallipoli, but then I assumed that he had shipped out to Africa in 1914 and could not have done both. But now it seems that he fought at Gallipoli in 1915 and then shipped out to Africa in 1916, getting seriously sick in both unhealthy enviroments. And you were even kind enough to provide the precious first name.

Would you be able to recall the books in which his service in Turkey was mentioned? There is so very little on the German service there.

I have heard that there may be an international effort to study the Gallipoli campaign, but I have little concrete information, so I should not post what might only be gossip.

Bob

[Bernhard H.Holst]

Very, very interesting and useful, Bernhard. I had guessed that he would have been the von Kaltenborn-Stachau that served at Gallipoli, but then I assumed that he had shipped out to Africa in 1914 and could not have done both. But now it seems that he fought at Gallipoli in 1915 and then shipped out to Africa in 1916, getting seriously sick in both unhealthy enviroments. And you were even kind enough to provide the precious first name.

Would you be able to recall the books in which his service in Turkey was mentioned? There is so very little on the German service there.

I have heard that there may be an international effort to study the Gallipoli campaign, but I have little concrete information, so I should not post what might only be gossip.

Bob

Hello Bob:

the above quoted book""Blockadebrecher Marie" contains remarks about v.Kaltenborn-Stachau's service at the Dardamelles. The book while written in a somewhat romantic style appears to me based on reliable sources. It contains photos from the various voyages and internment of the Captain Soerensen and some companions during the voyage to East Africa and the attempts made to return to Germany after completing their mission. Unfortunately no picture of v.Kaltenborn-Stachau.

Bernhard H. Holst

[bob lembke]

I have poked about, and my Super-Librarian wife obtained a copy of Blockade-breaker Marie from a Mid-western library, and I have more information on this interesting officer. His Datum der Patent as a Leutnant was 18. 8. 1906, and he was still a Leutnant in 1914. We all know the glacial rate of promotion of junior Prussian officers. But Klaus Wolf, in Gallipoli 1915 , described him as an Oberleutnant at Gallipoli in mid-1915. And the 1918 preuss./wuerttem. Dienstaltersliste carries him as a Hauptmann von der Fuss=Artillerie with the African forces and gives his "date of rank" as 22. 3. 1916. (After the war he retired as a Hauptmann a. D. ) I have not had time to read Blockade-breaker Marie (I am in Tax Hell, with about five tax returns to crank out in the next few days), but I quickly skimmed it, and it seems to mention him having been at the Dardanelles, but without any detail. It does seem to mention that he was the only replacement shipping along to Africa, there were only 14 men on board, and that he was slated to take the position of von Lettow-Vorbeck's commander of artillery. He had a wide experience and training, including serving in a Feld=artillerie regiment as well as two Fuss=Artillerie regiments and military academies and the training battalion of the Fuss=Artillerie shooting school. The Marie was carrying mountain guns and shells for the cruiser guns that von Lettow-Vorbeck had stripped from the beached cruiser (Koenigsburg?).

So von Kaltenborn-Stichau received a promotion to Oberleutnant shortly before traveling to Gallipoli, which probably was about when it should have been in the usual course of those things, but his promotion to Hauptmann only a year later seems very unusual. I guess it was felt that the rank would match his new position, as von Lettow-Vorbeck probably had the equivalant of several batteries of artillery. Was there some special mechanism or term for such a quick promotion? It must have required some special process or approval.

The book does not seem to mention any detailed description of von K-S's service at Gallipoli, although I may be happily surprised when I can read it. Can someone suggest a detailed book on the von Lettow-Vorbeck campaign that might include such information? Bernhard, thanks again for the lead to the Marie book.

Bob Lembke

[Bernhard H.Holst]

I have poked about, and my Super-Librarian wife obtained a copy of Blockade-breaker Marie from a Mid-western library, and I have more information on this interesting officer. His Datum der Patent as a Leutnant was 18. 8. 1906, and he was still a Leutnant in 1914. We all know the glacial rate of promotion of junior Prussian officers. But Klaus Wolf, in Gallipoli 1915 , described him as an Oberleutnant at Gallipoli in mid-1915. And the 1918 preuss./wuerttem. Dienstaltersliste carries him as a Hauptmann von der Fuss=Artillerie with the African forces and gives his "date of rank" as 22. 3. 1916. (After the war he retired as a Hauptmann a. D. ) I have not had time to read Blockade-breaker Marie (I am in Tax Hell, with about five tax returns to crank out in the next few days), but I quickly skimmed it, and it seems to mention him having been at the Dardanelles, but without any detail. It does seem to mention that he was the only replacement shipping along to Africa, there were only 14 men on board, and that he was slated to take the position of von Lettow-Vorbeck's commander of artillery. He had a wide experience and training, including serving in a Feld=artillerie regiment as well as two Fuss=Artillerie regiments and military academies and the training battalion of the Fuss=Artillerie shooting school. The Marie was carrying mountain guns and shells for the cruiser guns that von Lettow-Vorbeck had stripped from the beached cruiser (Koenigsburg?).

So von Kaltenborn-Stichau received a promotion to Oberleutnant shortly before traveling to Gallipoli, which probably was about when it should have been in the usual course of those things, but his promotion to Hauptmann only a year later seems very unusual. I guess it was felt that the rank would match his new position, as von Lettow-Vorbeck probably had the equivalant of several batteries of artillery. Was there some special mechanism or term for such a quick promotion? It must have required some special process or approval.

The book does not seem to mention any detailed description of von K-S's service at Gallipoli, although I may be happily surprised when I can read it. Can someone suggest a detailed book on the von Lettow-Vorbeck campaign that might include such information? Bernhard, thanks again for the lead to the Marie book.

Bob Lembke

[Bernhard H.Holst]

Hello Bob:

I have been on the search of L. Boell's "Die Operationen in Ostafrika Weltkrieg 1914-1918, published in Hamburg 1951. Ludwig.Boell was an officer (Lt, Oblt..and Hptm.as of 1917) under P.v.Lettow-Vorbeck and served in German East-Africa since 1913. , twice severely wounded he became a British POW in Sep.1918. He had several different assignments incl.that of Company Commander. Post war as of 1926 he was a civil service employee at the Reichsarchiv-Kriegsgeschichtliche Abteilung , last as Oberregierungsrat. He must have had access to whatever sources were then available. I believe that book published after WW II to contain information not available to most of the writers about the war in that far-away area. .

My source here is the obscure "Das Offizierskorps der Schutztruppe fuer Deutsch-Ostafrika im Weltkrieg 1914-1918" 2003, ISSN 1430-6352

Bernhard H. Holst

[bob lembke]

I will get my Super-Librarian wife (some of her librarian friends actually wear "Super-Librarian" tee-shirts) on the case to see where these books are, especially in the US. She has worked searching down books (and other things) for a major research library for 27 years, and has search tools not available to ordinary humans. I gather this WorldCat (I am not very familiar with it myself) is now available to the public, but my wife is allowed to go in and look up stuff and actually change the data in the WorldCat entry. (That is called trust.)

However, I assume that you have the Das Offizierskorps --- book, but I would like to look at it myself. Does it have more info on von Kaltenborn-Stichau? Bernhard, do not hesitate to ask me if you have a difficult book search. But I look at my PMs infrequently.

Bob

[Guest Rick Research]

Bob-- Ordinary people do not DO this sort of thing!

"So von Kaltenborn-Stichau received a promotion to Oberleutnant shortly before traveling to Gallipoli, which probably was about when it should have been in the usual course of those things, but his promotion to Hauptmann only a year later seems very unusual."

No, the pre-war guys were all RACED up when the massive war mobilization came along, to make space behind for the new poorly trained young war Leutnants.

Best way to find missing rank dates is to see who is listed in the wartime Dienstalters-Listen (GAP May 1914 to 1 January 1917) and was a P.O.W. There is no marker for prisoner status, but they clog the beginning of the lower ranks as being "passed over" and have been verified to have been captives.

So, Leutnant Patent date 18.08.06

Oberleutnant between September and November 1914, routine, with all his contemporaries-- didn't find anyone his EXACT Leutnant date who was a P.O.W. to tweak further

Hauptmann 22.03.16 works out quite nicely since as the war went on and casualties mounted, the PRE-war time of 12 to 15 years commissioned to reach this rank diminished to 10 and then 9 years.

[bob lembke]

Thanks for that info. It makes a lot of sense, but I did not know it. I have about 30 pre-war Ranglisten u. Dienstalterslisten, but only the 1918 preuss./wuerrtem. Dienstaltersliste, which I do not use for bed-time reading, so I have not seen a lot of data on the wartime promotions. Still a more conservative promotion policy than most of the Allies, to generalize. I have to get a better set of the war-time resources. I imagine that there is not much to track down the wartime Leutnant d. Res., usw., unless your subject had the misfortune to get killed, so you might get a hit on the war graves registry.

Bob

[Guest Rick Research]

"which I do not use for bed-time reading" But THAT is one of the Major Characteristics of Research Gnomes!

Go through your 1918 and look at wartime Captains... then see who is still at the front of the Oberleutnants and Leutnants with that SAME Leutnant Patent date. THOSE Lieutenants are the guys who were prisoners of war, or missing in action. Seniority was compulsive, so anybody "passed over" was... not THERE to be promoted. :ninja: