Robin Lumsden Posted February 3, 2012 Author Posted February 3, 2012 Also similarities with a later skull!
Thomas W Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 If the FW troops felt that a totenkopf should be adopted by them as early as 1914, maybe the later 'approved' insignia just happened to be the Prussian type because of its old associations with the Crown Prince and his Leibhusaren. In other words, the KP was 'rubber stamping' what the FW troops wanted, using his own preference of TK. That's the theory of the Webmaster. Personally, I don't think the chalk signboard in question refers to the troops' preference for a symbol. For example, there are lots of chalk signboards with drawings of pistols, grenades, horseshoes, trench guns, etc. The flamethrower pioneers had their dedicated unit since October of 1914, but they didn't received the sleeve badge until July of 1916. That's quite a long time to go without having any special insignia, particularly since hand-grenade throwers and shock troops had been wearing their own informal badges since late 1915 or so. I think when the Crown Prince recommended the Totenkopf to the Kaiser, the two of them were making an extremely Prussian statement about their own patronage of this regiment. I think the Prussian Totenkopf represented the elite status of the unit rather than its dangerous missions. On the other hand, I think the chalkboard Totenkopf drawn by the men of Flammenwerfer-Abteilung Reddemann is the equivalent of a skull-and-crossbones on a jar of rat poison or a sign on a minefield. I have lots of photos of flamethrower pioneers taken prior to the awarding of the Prussian Totenkopf. You'd think that if they wanted to be identified with a Totenkopf at least a few of them would have put one on before July of 1916, especially since so many other assault troops were wearing unofficial badges by then. But so far the 1914 photo is the only one I've seen associating flamethrower pioneers with a Totenkopf before the official badge was awarded.
Robin Lumsden Posted February 3, 2012 Author Posted February 3, 2012 Even the Crown Prince's Leibhusaren had used this 'chalk' type of TK in earlier times ..................................
Robin Lumsden Posted February 3, 2012 Author Posted February 3, 2012 That's the theory of the Webmaster. Personally, I don't think the chalk signboard in question refers to the troops' preference for a symbol. For example, there are lots of chalk signboards with drawings of pistols, grenades, horseshoes, trench guns, etc. The flamethrower pioneers had their dedicated unit since October of 1914, but they didn't received the sleeve badge until July of 1916. That's quite a long time to go without having any special insignia, particularly since hand-grenade throwers and shock troops had been wearing their own informal badges since late 1915 or so. I think when the Crown Prince recommended the Totenkopf to the Kaiser, the two of them were making an extremely Prussian statement about their own patronage of this regiment. I think the Prussian Totenkopf represented the elite status of the unit rather than its dangerous missions. On the other hand, I think the chalkboard Totenkopf drawn by the men of Flammenwerfer-Abteilung Reddemann is the equivalent of a skull-and-crossbones on a jar of rat poison or a sign on a minefield. I have lots of photos of flamethrower pioneers taken prior to the awarding of the Prussian Totenkopf. You'd think that if they wanted to be identified with a Totenkopf at least a few of them would have put one on before July of 1916, especially since so many other assault troops were wearing unofficial badges by then. But so far the 1914 photo is the only one I've seen associating flamethrower pioneers with a Totenkopf before the official badge was awarded. You could be right, Thomas. It's just interesting to see the use of the TK by FW troops verified as early as 1914. There could be other photos lurking around showing similar (even black!) TK use by them pre- the official TK.
Thomas W Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 This type of skull as on the chalk board was also associated with the military pre-1914. Not just a danger sign. Yes, but the flamethrower detachment had no connection to any of the units that had used the Totenkopf before the war.
Thomas W Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 There could be other photos lurking around showing similar (even black!) TK use by them pre- the official TK. Absolutely. I just think that the specific context of this Totenkopf is "BEWARE! POISON! DANGER!" rather than a connection to any other unit or tradition, especially since it's such a sloppily drawn image.
Robin Lumsden Posted February 3, 2012 Author Posted February 3, 2012 Yes, but the flamethrower detachment had no connection to any of the units that had used the Totenkopf before the war. Correct ................. but they still chalked it up in 1914! Thanks for posting this info Thomas. Really good stuff.
Robin Lumsden Posted February 3, 2012 Author Posted February 3, 2012 I just think that the specific context of this Totenkopf is "BEWARE! POISON! DANGER!" rather than a connection to any other unit or tradition, especially since it's such a sloppily drawn image. And they were still drawing the 'official' version sloppily in 1917 !! :)
Thomas W Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 Correct ................. but they still chalked it up in 1914! Here's another reason why I think it has more to do with danger than with the heraldry of any specific unit.
Thomas W Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 All right, which one of you made this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Iy3PQP7qiE
Robin Lumsden Posted February 10, 2012 Author Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) All right, which one of you made this? Well, it wasn't me. I think they must have copied everything from this site !!! Edited February 10, 2012 by Robin Lumsden
Thomas W Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 Well, it wasn't me. I think they must have copied everything from this site !!! Every single photo except for one is mine. That's okay. Public forum and all that. I'll bet Chris Boonzaier did it.
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 Every single photo except for one is mine. That's okay. Public forum and all that. I'll bet Chris Boonzaier did it. I would have put better music...... Its irritating, but I always see it as follows.... the guy who did this this is a ######, you can see that right off the bat, secondly, although choosing a really crap song, he is probably not german "Fuhrer" ?? The problem (for me) is not that he scammed the photos, but to be associated with an idiot like him. But... its like advertising, if nothing is done to bring outsiders in and interest them in our parts of the hobby, then in 10 years time it will be the same 5 of us interested in this kind of stuff sitting here measuring willies. Maybe a complaint to youtube will get it erased? His screen name should be enough. How did you find it??
Thomas W Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) How did you find it?? I've got my own private thread going here: http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=175244 I was searching YouTube for WWI flamethrowers and up popped that video with all my photos. And a photo of your original Totenkopf badge. It has less than 100 views, so in a sense YouTube has already taken it down. Edited February 10, 2012 by Thomas W
Thomas W Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) By the way, since this is the Flammenwerfer-Totenkopf thread, in case anyone is interested I recently discovered that I have in my collection a photo of the father of one of the people who sometimes comments here, Bob Lembke. Bob confirmed that this is indeed his father, Pionier Georg Lembke, 2. Kompagnie, Garde-Reserve-Pionier-Regiment. I never forget a face, and Bob had sent me an image of his father years ago. My photo shows Bob and the 1st Platoon of his company about to go into battle at Verdun, very likely on December 28, 1916, the day Bob's father was terribly wounded on the Dead Man. My photo is on the left, and Bob's is on the right, taken two years later. Edited February 10, 2012 by Thomas W
Thomas W Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 This was for sale on eBay a while back. Real? Freikorps?
Robin Lumsden Posted February 10, 2012 Author Posted February 10, 2012 This was for sale on eBay a while back. Real? Freikorps? I've never seen a TK camo helm before ................ but anything is possible.
Chip Posted February 11, 2012 Posted February 11, 2012 This was for sale on eBay a while back. Real? Freikorps? This helmet was discussed on the Wehrmacht Awards website. I think the conclusion was that it was a total fake. Chip
Thomas W Posted February 11, 2012 Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) I've never seen a TK camo helm before ................ but anything is possible. What's the one on the right? I have a card that has a similar design on a placard. My photo was taken in 1916. Edited February 11, 2012 by Thomas W
Robin Lumsden Posted February 11, 2012 Author Posted February 11, 2012 What's the one on the right? Not sure, although the arm diamond suggests ex-Epp FK. Same design as the ring in the left here .................
Robin Lumsden Posted February 11, 2012 Author Posted February 11, 2012 This helmet was discussed on the Wehrmacht Awards website. I think the conclusion was that it was a total fake. Chip I didn't see the discussion, but I agree with the conclusion.
Robin Lumsden Posted February 25, 2012 Author Posted February 25, 2012 Another nice picture ..................
Thomas W Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Another nice picture .................. Where'd you get it? Never mind. I found it... Edited February 25, 2012 by Thomas W
Robin Lumsden Posted February 26, 2012 Author Posted February 26, 2012 Never mind. I found it... Hope it is yours soon!
Robin Lumsden Posted February 27, 2012 Author Posted February 27, 2012 Interesting. Could be FK Erlangen or FK Bruessow. Erlangen usually wore the BW TK, but without tabs. Bruessow usually wore the Prussian TK, but with tabs.
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