Flammenwerfer! Flames, skulls and stuff

[Robin Lumsden]

He has 9000 militaria things sold and going back 6 pages in his history, EVERYTHING he sells that is not a photo has "Originalst?ck frisch vom Dachboden aus einem Nachlass!". I too have bought from him on many occasions, but think I would take the story of the origin with a pinch of salt.

I agree.

But I have never seen an obvious fake in any of his sales.

He seems to come up with quite a few rarities, including rare photos..................whatever his sources are.

His only non-photo items that week were the skull, the boards and the belt, and it seemed to me that there could be a link between the three items, for the reasons already given.

Anyway, I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest with this patch..............it is what it is, and I just wish the postie would deliver it so I can judge it better 'in hand'.

I'm totally open-minded about the whole thing.

It was almost worth the 60+ Euro to see the info that has been supplied in this thread!

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

indeed! I dont want to be too negative either, just looking at it through the same microscope I would have if I was buying.

Best

Chris

[Robin Lumsden]

............just looking at it through the same microscope I would have if I was buying.

I always use a microscope as well.

It showed that Heiko does quite a bit of advertising in the 'wanted' sections of his local papers.

Might explain how he seems to get a lot of 'out of the woodwork' stuff. (Assuming, of course, that it is out of the woods).

His photos are remarkable, I think.................I've noticed that he regularly comes up with old studio portraits of TK hussars (and the occasional FW trooper) which I've seldom if ever see on the mainstream dealer sites.

Anyway, here's one of his adverts from the 'wanted' columns.....................

[Chris Boonzaier]

I used to run ads in Germany, On occasion I did hundreds of KM to see stuff that was "From the family" or "From a friend"...

About 50% were "Plants" from hobby dealers and flea market sellers. 30% was good but absolute dross, 15% was OK, but not earth shattering and 5% was pretty nice.

In the end I packed it in, there is not enough to make it worthwhile.

To make a go of it these guys have to buy at local shows, from local collectors, from flea markets etc. etc.

Like I said, for me this would have to stand 100% on the piece, without any of his story.

The question is, can a one off hand made piece stand on its own?

Best

Chris

[Robin Lumsden]

The question is, can a one off hand made piece stand on its own?

I think so...............at least with FK stuff.

Here's a hand-made (red eyed) TK VELVET cuffband................

[Robin Lumsden]

The velvet band on its own would have been pretty questionable................but it came with this........

[Robin Lumsden]

........on this.............

[Robin Lumsden]

..........and it's supported by photographs...........

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

what kind of skull is it? Panzer?

Best

Chris

[Robin Lumsden]

What kind of skull is it? Panzer?

No...............it's an Imperial hussar skull of this type.

[Chip]

And I would say they are the early greatcoat straps that have been doctored. Come on, blue backing on the 1915 front color of black? And that big fat red piping? I would not take them if they were given to me.

I'd take them in a minute! These are custom purchase straps and thus they are not going to conform exactly to sizes and construction of the issue pieces. I grant you that the blue backing is odd and I could not overlook it on an issue piece, but these are not issue boards. The deivices are similar to known examples. If someone would like to pass them along, I would be happy to relieve you of them.

Chip

[Naxos]

Remember this one

[Thomas W]

Found another postwar image. This one's interesting because it shows at least one flamethrower pioneer from Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr).

Here's the Wexstosstrupp, in Berlin:

[Thomas W]

Here's a closeup of the man in the center. He has a white Totenkopf sleeve badge, which has replaced his wartime version, but he wears it directly under the left elbow instead of on or above the cuff. This identifies him as belonging to the flamethrower platoon of Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr). Note his black pioneer shoulder straps.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Thomas W

[Robin Lumsden]

Here's a closeup of the man in the center. He has a white Totenkopf sleeve badge, which has replaced his wartime version, but he wears it directly under the left elbow instead of on or above the cuff. This identifies him as belonging to the flamethrower platoon of Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr). Note his black pioneer shoulder straps.

Another fine photograph.

I always thought that when members of Rohr's battalion transferred into the flamethrower regiment, they moved their TK badges to the cuff.

Interesting that this man has retained the 'old' under-elbow position, after the war.

[Chip]

The postition of the TK patch for the GRPR during the war was specified. On the M07 enlisted tunic, the patch was to be worn just above the Swedish cuff. On the M15 Bluse and the vereinfachte M07 tunic, the patch was supposed to be worn on the barrel cuff.

I was not aware of some special method of wear for the Rohr flamethrower troops. What are the details on this?

Chip

[Thomas W]

I was not aware of some special method of wear for the Rohr flamethrower troops. What are the details on this?

Chip, although I've been unable to find an actual written order, a series of photos of Rohr's battalion training in Beuville show that all his flamethrower troops wore their badges directly under the left elbow. Some of these photos appear on page 65 of M. Christian Ortner's Storm Troops: Austro-Hungarian Assault Units and Commandos in the First World War (Vienna: Verlag Militaria, 2005).

I have over a dozen photos in my collection that show flamethrower pioneers wearing the sleeve badge in the "Rohr" position. The two most important when it comes to this issue are images that show men from the flamethrower platoon of Sturmbataillon Nr. 14. The first was taken on May 19, 1918, and the second on August 9, 1918.

In the May photo, one flamethrower pioneer wears his badge in the "Rohr" position (left). In the August photo, he has moved it down to the "Reddemann" position (right) and put it on a bigger cloth backing.

Major Reddemann, the commander of the flamethrower regiment, never once mentioned Rohr in his memoirs. I think there was some kind of rivalry between the two men. In addition, the 14 flamethrower pioneers of Rohr's battalion who died in the war are not recorded in the death book of the Garde-Reserve-Pionier-Regiment, indicating that they were not considered part of the regiment when they served with Rohr. Flamethrower pioneers serving with the other assault battalions were recorded in the regimental death book when they died, but not the men in Rohr's unit.

I have photographic evidence that men transferred from Rohr's battalion into the flamethrower regiment, but not vice versa. Rohr got his replacements from the II. Garde-Pionier-Ersatz-Bataillon, as did Reddemann. So, Rohr's men wore the sleeve badge at the elbow to differentiate themselves from Reddemann's men, but when Rohr's men transferred into Reddemann's unit, they moved the badge to the lower postion.

[Thomas W]

Just to put the finishing touch on Rohr flamethrower pioneers, here's a closeup of a photo that will appear in my new flamethrower book, which Schiffer will publish sometime this year, I hope.

This is the Truppf?hrer of a Kleiftrupp of Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr), photographed at Malancourt in 1917. As you can see, he wears the Garde-Pionier uniform, but he also has a red "5" on his shoulder strap. All the other Rohr flamethrower pioneers in this photo have a "5" on their straps, too, so I'm pretty sure it was standard. If you look closely at the previous image I posted, it looks like the man has a "5" on his strap as well.

I'll bet Reddemann hated that...

[Naxos]

One of the best threads in a while, thanks everyone!

In: Aufbau und Verwendung der deutschen Sturmbataillone im Weltkrieg; by Hellmuth Gruss (1939)

Gruss writes that the Grenadiers of SB 5 were authorized to wear a crown patch on the left lower arm. Does anyone have pictures of it in wear?

Edited May 23, 2009 by Naxos

[Thomas W]

Naxos, I have one very unclear photo of the Rohr arm badge, but it's interesting for many reasons. It shows Kaiser Wilhelm II and General Oskar von Hutier inspecting Stosstruppen armed with the MP18-1 submachine gun. Each soldier has a submachine gun and a trench knife, and he carries spare ammunition drums in the pockets of his Bluse:

[Thomas W]

On the far left of the photo are troopers from Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr) and the Garde-Reserve-Pionier-Regiment.

You can see the light-colored blob of the crown badge worn above the cuff by Rohr's man (left), and you can see the Totenkopf sleeve badge, Garde-Litzen, and black shoulder straps worn by the flamethrower pioneer (right). The Rohr pioneer also wears black shoulder straps.

I don't know if this is some kind of honor guard, or if it was taken after a Maschinenpistole Kursus, since there are men from many units in the line of submachine gunners. Until I found this photo I didn't know that either Rohr's battalion or the flamethrower regiment were armed with submachine guns.

Sorry my photo isn't better. I've seen only one other image of the Rohr sleeve badge, which is owned by a French collector named Maurice Sublet. The badge consisted of a crown above a letter "W," both in white metal, attached to an oval of field-gray cloth. Like the Rohr flamethrower badge, it was worn below the elbow.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Thomas W

[Naxos]

... Like the Rohr flamethrower badge, it was worn below the elbow.

... exactly, SB 5 Flammenwerfer personnel wore their Totenkopf at the same level on the sleeve as the other SB 5 Grenadiers wore their crown (Rohr) badge.

Uniformity.

Makes sense and explains the difference in wear compared to GRP Flammenwerfer personnel

[Thomas W]

Naxos, the book Deutsche Sturmtruppen, mentioned here, has Mr. Sublet's excellent photo of the Rohr sleeve badge on page 37:

http://maisonducombattant.over-blog.com/pa...MCC-349145.html

It's the only clear image I've ever seen of the badge.

Edited May 24, 2009 by Thomas W

[Thomas W]

I said I'd stop, but I lied! Ha-ha-ha-haaaaaaa!

Here are two of my favorite images from my collection. First, is a Rohr flamethrower pioneer as a member of the II. Garde-Pionier-Ersatz-Bataillon, wearing his full parade finery. Note the fullness of his cheeks. This was before he joined the assault battalion.

[Thomas W]

Here's the same man as a member of the flamethrower platoon of Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr). I know this because I've seen a photo of him wearing a Totenkopf sleeve badge in the "Rohr" position under the elbow. It's not my photo, unfortunately, so I can't post it.

Note the subtle changes in his face, brought about by the strain of combat, no doubt.

Edited May 24, 2009 by Thomas W