Flammenwerfer! Flames, skulls and stuff

[Thomas W]

Robin, when I get my photos back from my publisher, I'll post a scan of the flamethrower pioneer wearing the very dark Totenkopf. You can see his hand on the shoulder of another man on right of this image.

I wish I'd scanned the whole image. It didn't occur to me that there might be a black Totenkopf sleeve badge. I thought it was just very dark gray.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Thomas W

[Robin Lumsden]

Robin, when I get my photos back from my publisher, I'll post a scan of the flamethrower pioneer wearing the very dark Totenkopf. You can see his hand on the shoulder of another man on right of this image.

I wish I'd scanned the whole image. It didn't occur to me that there might be a black Totenkopf sleeve badge. I thought it was just very dark gray.

Many thanks, Thomas.

That would be great! :cheers:

[Thomas W]

Poor-quality illustration from Karl Kraus, Weltgericht Volume II (Vienna: Swoboda & Co., 1919), page 67:

Flamethrower troops of the 5th Army greet the Crown Prince by shooting jets of flame into the air to form a "W." There appear to be several large trucks in the background, with flamethrower lances leaned up against them.

Too bad the quality of the illustration isn't better. The text says this took place in February of 1918, which was when the men of Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr) were unofficially awarded the "W" sleeve badge. I wonder if this was the ceremony to commemorate it? If so, it doesn't seem likely that Reddemann's men were shooting the flames; on the other hand, those are an awful lot of flamethrower lances in the background. Rohr's battalion had a maximum of only eight small flamethrowers and no large, as far as I know.

Strange!

Edited June 9, 2009 by Thomas W

[Thomas W]

Here's the caption for the illustration:

[bob lembke]

Even in late 1916 Reddemann's FW company with the 5th Army (2. Kompagnie, Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment) had trucks; my father was a member of that company, and I have a photo of his of the trucks in the courtyard of the barracks; he said that they always were loaded with FW, spare oil, etc. under tarps, ready for quick deployment. And when the FW regiment was reformed to prepare for the great March 1918 offensive they supposedly received more dedicated trucks for the planned mobile warfare, which they would have received by the time of the interesting photo.

Surely the FW resources in the photo alone were more than the S=B Rohr possessed; Reddemann certainly "had an attitude" about S=B Rohr and its semi-independent FW platoon, and would have probably not liked to help celebrate a S=B Rohr honor, but certainly the event also honored the Crown Prince, and he was a good enough politician to oblige. Both men (Reddemann and Rohr) had good access to "little Willi". Last year I had an evening of beer and pizza with a direct decendant of the Crown Prince (a German reserve officer), and he greatly enjoyed stories of interactions between "big Willi" and "little Willi" and the men of 2. Kompagnie during visits of both of the royals to the barracks at Stenay-sur-Meuse. (For the record, despite an officially designated evening of "beer and pizza", the Prussian prince seemed to prefer cognac with his pizza, showing his aristocratic bent.)

Bob Lembke

[Robin Lumsden]

I found this at the Bundesarchiv site................caption says it's a (British?) tank, destroyed by German flamethrower action.

(1. Weltkrieg 1914-1918, Westfront, durch deutsche Panzerabwehr mit Flammenwerfer vernichteter (britischer?) Tank; die Besatzung ist erstickt und verbrannt.)

[bob lembke]

I only have one detailed (several pages) description of the destruction of an active British tank by flame thrower troops. A half platoon of Reddemann's troops were advancing on a major concrete pill-box holding up an advance from the side, were fired on by a tank, they stalked the tank and knocked it out (rushed it from the rear, fired a burst of smoke and flame, providing cover; with that rushed right up to the tank and fired a burst right into the interior thru an opening or slot, with results as in the photo, not very pleasant) , and then circled the pill-box and attacked from the rear and fired flame oil in, and 73 men and a couple of officers surrendered with great enthusiasm, with seven MGs. The flame pioneers lost three men, and the NCO commanding the half platoon got an EK I and a promotion. This is from memory but I believe that it is accurate; I have read the account several times and have it in my time-line.

I have also read that the FW crews were told to not to attempt to tackle a tank head-on, but attack from the rear. My father trained in British tanks for a week to prepare to fight tanks (to prove to the men what a crummy gun platform a moving tank was), but then to attack tanks with gaballtne Ladnung, or a large explosive charge, seven "potato mashers" wired together. One course chum knocked out three tanks in two days in this fashion. Hope he got his EK I.

Bob Lembke

[Thomas W]

I have also read that the FW crews were told to not to attempt to tackle a tank head-on, but attack from the rear.

According to Charles Theune, Sturmtruppen und Flammenwerfer (Berlin: Landes-Verlag, 1921), page 187, tanks were to be attacked only from the front, where the hatches, pistol ports, and vision slits could not be closed tightly enough to keep out the burning oil.

The War Diary of Sturmpanzerkraftwagen-Abteilung 1 (Bundesarchiv-Milit?rarchiv N 89/5) says that on February 12, 1918, Reddemann and a few other German officers volunteered to sit inside a captured British Mark IV that was sprayed with a flamethrower. Reddemann wanted to see for himself how effective the weapon was. As soon as the flame jet hit the tank, all the oxygen inside was used up and the tank's oil supply caught fire. Reddemann and the others had to immediately bail out. They almost didn't make it, apparently.

The famous flamethrower-and-tank image from the Imperial War Museum shows a frontal attack, too. I can't post it here, but I'm sure we've all seen it.

In Robin's gruesome photo the only visible flame damage on the side of the tank seems to eminate from the hatches, from inside the vehicle, and it's clear that the unfortunate crew tried desperately to escape. Whatever happened to the tank happened very quickly. The man inside died while crawling, like some of the residents of Pompei. Reddemann defended the use of the flamethrower in his memoirs, saying that some "weak sisters and old maids" in the German homeland objected to the weapon as "inhuman," when in reality (he claimed) it was more humane than other weapons because it caused such "moral shock" in the enemy that he often surrendered without a fight, making further bloodshed unnecessary.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Thomas W

[Thomas W]

Here's an image from Paul Heinrici, ed., Das Ehrenbuch der Deutschen Pioniere (Berlin: Verlag Tradition Wilhelm Rolf, 1931), page 313. Looks like a frontal flamethrower attack:

[Thomas W]

One more from Das Ehrenbuch, page 293. Another frontal flamethrower attack, it appears:

[Thomas W]

From my own collection:

Wex squads training in antitank warfare. Note the mock Renault FT-17 on the right, made of wood. The really bizarre thing about this image is that the person fifth from the right is a young boy wearing knee pants and a soft cap! What's he doing on this training field? Who is he?

At the end of the war line pioneers were trained in the use of the Wex for antitank measures. These may be such men.

[Thomas W]

Thought I should post this: The death book of the German flamethrower regiment, downloadable for $3.00:

http://www.lulu.com/content/e-book/totenbu...werfer)/2519204

It's a great reference, with speeches given at the ceremony dedicating the memorial for the regiment, photos, and the names of all 890 flamethrower pioneers who died in the war, their ranks, and the date and place of their deaths.

[Robin Lumsden]

Thought I should post this: The death book of the German flamethrower regiment, downloadable for $3.00:

http://www.lulu.com/content/e-book/totenbu...werfer)/2519204

It's a great reference, with speeches given at the ceremony dedicating the memorial for the regiment, photos, and the names of all 890 flamethrower pioneers who died in the war, their ranks, and the date and place of their deaths.

Thanks, Thomas. :cheers:

[Gilles]

If I remember properly, this badge was first offered on Ebay as a patch of the "Nebeltruppe". Another one (or the very same?) was then sold by Mr Fox. And a Berlin dealer was proposing one at the Preussische Militariab?rse on June 6th. This new patch doesn't seem to have been a one of a kind production.

I am very sorry, but I have to tell you about my deep doubts regarding the authenticity of the patch.

regards

Gilles

[Robin Lumsden]

If I remember properly, this badge was first offered on Ebay as a patch of the "Nebeltruppe". Another one (or the very same?) was then sold by Mr Fox. And a Berlin dealer was proposing one at the Preussische Militariab?rse on June 6th. This new patch doesn't seem to have been a one of a kind production.

I am very sorry, but I have to tell you about my deep doubts regarding the authenticity of the patch.

regards

Gilles

Thanks Gilles.

I don't know who Mr. Fox is.

Do you know what the Berlin dealer was labelling the badge, and how much he was asking for it?

I've never seen one like it before, so it's still a mystery to me.

I can assure you, I also had my doubts when I bought it, but I took a chance and once I had the badge in hand I had no doubts about it's originality...........whatever it is. If I thought it was fake, it would be in the bin now.

I am still hoping that Thomas might be able to produce the photo with the possible black skull in wear, when it is returned from his publishers.

Thanks again Gilles for this information.

[Thomas W]

Robin, as soon as I get the photo back I'll post it.

[Gilles]

Robin,

Sorry for the bad pun, Mr Fox is Heiko Fuchs.

Maybe it is some kind of over-cautious reaction from me. It always gives collectors a headache when the same extremly rare & non regulation item appears suddenly several times - in a rather short time, after Detlev Niemann opened Pandorra's box when he showed both sides of his patches- and in a close geographic range. The text to the first sell on Ebay (as a patch of WWI "Nebeltruppe") sounded pretty much like deception and made me very suspicious from the beginning.

But as any human being, I may be wrong.

Regards

Gilles

[Thomas W]

Very unusual photo I was lucky enough to find on eBay. Men of the 9th Company of the Garde-Reserve-Pionier-Regiment after an attack. Note the torn clothing and bandage, as well as the swollen face of the man in the background.

No date, but the writing on the back says: "A squad of flamethrowers following a successful operation (with infantry). Brought to our positions and then picked up the following day. Squad Leader (a Vizefeldwebel) and two men missing."

[Robin Lumsden]

Robin, as soon as I get the photo back I'll post it.

Thanks Thomas. :beer:

[Robin Lumsden]

Robin,

Sorry for the bad pun, Mr Fox is Heiko Fuchs.

Maybe it is some kind of over-cautious reaction from me. It always gives collectors a headache when the same extremly rare & non regulation item appears suddenly several times - in a rather short time, after Detlev Niemann opened Pandorra's box when he showed both sides of his patches- and in a close geographic range. The text to the first sell on Ebay (as a patch of WWI "Nebeltruppe") sounded pretty much like deception and made me very suspicious from the beginning.

But as any human being, I may be wrong.

Regards

Gilles

Thanks Gilles.

I should have twigged that Fox = Fuchs.

I didn't see the 'Nebeltruppe' auction.............must have missed that one.

[Robin Lumsden]

....... - in a rather short time, after Detlev Niemann opened Pandora's box when he showed both sides of his patches.........

I see your point here. It made me a bit skeptical too, when deciding whether or not to bid for it.

However, once I had the badge in hand it was clear that it was made long before Detlev published these photos.

It is certainly a VERY old badge, with a lot of 'natural' age.

[Robin Lumsden]

Gilles.

I may have to eat my words!

Herr Fuchs has another one on eBay today!

Pictures are attached here.............posts 20, 21 and 22.

I am now having doubts!

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359796&page=2

[Robin Lumsden]

For what it's worth, I've been in touch with the seller and he says that he obtained 2 of these badges from the same house clearance.

[dond]

Now that's a coincidence....

[Chris Boonzaier]

Cloth skull badges always come in twos ;-)