Some Unidentified Sun Helmet Insignia.

[Stuart Bates]

Leigh,

do you have any photos showing soldiers wearing Wolseleys without a puggaree?

Stuart

[leigh kitchen]

I may have ........just checking.

Meanwhile, I have this one - Royal Navy in Wolseleys with their tally bands in lieu of pugarees

Edited July 5, 2009 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

I think that the tallies read "HM SUBMARINE L19" or possibly "L18".

L19 was laid down by Vickers on 4/2/1919 & broken up in 1937.

L18 was laid down by Vickers on 221/11/1918 & broken up in October 1936.

On the back of the photo is written "What do you go on me as a swaddy", obviously a reference to being kitted out in Landing Rig with rifle, webbing, gaiters etc.

Edited July 5, 2009 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

I identified the flash shown here years ago, but can't remember what it was now - black circle on orange lozenge?

Identified as 1/25th Londons, India, WWI(see post 41).

Edited February 25, 2010 by leigh kitchen

[Stuart Bates]

Leigh,

this helmet was, I think, called the "Standard Pattern" but looks very much like the "Pith Hat" which first appeared as a photograph in the 1900 DRs but was never further described. It isn't a Wolseley however.

I have this photo taken in 1937 of sailors of HMS Tarantula when in Canton. The helmets look very much like those worn by German sailors of the period - who copied whom?

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

Here is the photo of German sailors of the SMS Emden during a Pacific cruise in the 1930s.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Stuart Bates

[Stuart Bates]

A close-up.

[Stuart Bates]

Leigh,

I could not locate the "black circle on an orange lozenge" flash in any of my references. I hope you regain your memory!

Stuart

[coldstream]

Thought I'd post this image of crew members of HMS Cumberland to show the differences in shape between the Royal Navy pattern helmet and that of the Royal Marines.

[coldstream]

This photograph has 'GOC British forces at Shanghai' written to the reverse and IMHO dates to the late 30's. The Officer has a metal badge to the front of his helmet which I would imagine denotes his rank although it is hard to make out. There is also a cloth puggaree flash which again is obscured. The other man is from the Diplomatic Service? He wears a metal Royal Coat of Arms type metal badge and as you can see there are slight differences to the shapes of the headwear.

Any thoughts on id Gentlemen.

[coldstream]

A close up of the GOC. (I know I need an Epson)

[coldstream]

And the Diplomat.

[Stuart Bates]

The rank badges would be on the shoulder straps so I think the badge would be his Corps or Regiment. Pity we can't see the flash.

Helmets could vary in shape from manufacturer to manufacturer and depending on what equipment they employed in the manufacturing process. Originally they were made by hand on hat blocks and these blocks could vary quite markedly. I don't know when machine manufacture came in or how the process worked. I did write to one of the remaining helmet makers but got no response.

Gieves seem to have had a monopoly on the Royal Navy trade but there were many suppliers to the army - Hawkes, Christys, Ellwood etc. and many smaller makers who supplied no-name items to military outfitters who then often put their own name to the helmet.

Stuart

[leigh kitchen]

Leigh,

this helmet was, I think, called the "Standard Pattern" but looks very much like the "Pith Hat" which first appeared as a photograph in the 1900 DRs but was never further described. It isn't a Wolseley however........

Stuart

A senior moment - I should have known better - after all on the wall I have a photo of my grandfather with one of these helmets........

[William1]

Leigh

I think the flash in post 2 is 1/4th Devons - Devonshire over 1/4 over Regiment, in green cloth on khaki drill. I once owned an example of this flash. The Barnstaple photographer adds weight to this.

Regards,

W.

[Stuart Bates]

According to the Regimental Museum the Devons had a metal pagri badge consisting of a 2" circlet with the word DEVONSHIRE surrounding the Castle of Exeter and the motto Semper Fidelis, all in brass.

However, a 1927 photograph of the 2nd Battalion returning from Aden, shows a circular rosette made from ribbon of the WWI Croix de Guerre colours of green and red.

But these flashes apply to the two regular battalions and I don't know whether they extended to hostilities only ones.

Stuart

[leigh kitchen]

The unit in post 29 is now identified (thanks to "The Formation Sign", issue 237, January-March 2010).

Photographs show this pugaree badge in wear & as a red on blue-grey patch, although the text notes that examples are known in red on pale khaki & are presumably faded examples of the red on blue-grey.

Identified as 1/25th (County of London) Cyclist Bn, The London Regiment, who went to India in 1916, & who served in Waziristan in 1917 (200 men serving in Mesopotamia that year) were involved in quelling the Amritsar Uprising in 1919 & took part in the 3rd Afghan War.

A contingent of 100 men from the 1/25th Londons were involved in putting down the the Amritsar Uprising in 1919, they were not involved in the Amritsar massacre.

A photograph here of three men of the Bn enforcing the "Crawling Order", whereby Indians passing the scene of an assault by rioters on a British woman were required to crawl:

http://www.25thlondon.com/amritsar.htm

More info re the 1/25th Londons:

http://www.25thlondon.com/wja.htm

http://www.25thlondon.com/amritsar2.htm

Edited March 5, 2010 by leigh kitchen

[Stuart Bates]

Damn! I haven't received my copy of Formation Sign yet

One of the problems of living on the other side of the world.

I told you that it was well worth joining the Military Heraldry Society

At last, something solved

Stuart