Exile awards of the House Order of Hohenzollern

[Komtur]

The awards of the Royal Prussian House Order of Hohenzollern by Wilhelm II continued after 1918 in his Amerongen and Doorn exile. Strictly spoken these were not real awards of orders, because the Ex-Kaiser had no more official right to honour persons with these decorations. But the Kaiser did not care about that, promoted officers and distributed various titles and orders.

Until now there is no roll with these awards known. It could be, that in the Doorn archive are documents about it.

Some awards are mentioned in the Ilsemann diary:

6.11.1922 Godard Graf von Aldenburg-Bentinck (Collar of the HOH)

20.8.1924 Ostl. Friedrich Mewes (Komtur HOH)

15.6.1928 Dr. Seibert (Komtur HOH), Graf Conrad von Finckenstein (Komtur HOH)

7.7.1928 Ehrenfried Freiherr von H?nefeld (Star to the Komtur HOH), Hptm. Hermann K?hl (Komtur and Star HOH)

11.9.1930 Prof. Wilhelm D?rpfeld (Star to the Komtur HOH), french pianist Marteaux (Komtur HOH)

28.9.1930 Kapit?nleutnant Wolfgang Gronau (Knight HOH)

29.6.1933 Fregatten-Kpt. Graf Nikolaus zu Dohna-Schlodien (Knight HOH)

The award of the HOH Komtur to Joseph von Lauff in the early thirties is known because his order and the document is now in a private collection.

For these awards were no documents in the usual manner given, it was only a paper written with the impirial typewriter and singned by the Ex-Kaiser.

The decorations of this period are made by Godet in gilded silver. They differ from the pre-1918 crosses and stars of Godet.

The pilots K?hl, Fitzmaurice and Freiherr von H?nefeld (left to right) with the Kaiser in Doorn, K?hl and H?nefeld with the just awarded HOH?s:

Edited May 28, 2009 by Komtur

[Komtur]

The award document for the Komtur of the HOH to the personal physician of the Kaiser in Doorn, Generaloberarzt a. D. Dr. Remmert

[Les]

The decorations of this period are made by Godet in gilded silver. They differ from the pre-1918 crosses and stars of Godet.

K.,

Would you happen to have a good photos to compare "before" and "after" awards side by side, to show how they differ?

Thanks,

Les

[Komtur]

Remmerts Komtur cross of the HOH in a case of Godet

[Komtur]

Both sides of the cross

[Komtur]

Unfortunately without the document, Remmerts knight cross, marked "938" and "JG&S", also in a Godet box, but with earlier logo

[Komtur]

Both sides of Remmerts knight cross

[Komtur]

Picture from a dutch newspaper with Remmert (third from the left)

[Komtur]

The award document for the knight cross to Oberstabsarzt Dr. Karl Tellgmann, the personal physician of the Kaiser in Doorn before Dr. Remmerts service

Edited May 28, 2009 by Komtur

[Komtur]

Order bar of Dr. Karl Tellgmann with his "Doorn" HOH knight, same markings as on the Remmert knight

[Komtur]

Detail picture of the HOH on Tellgmanns bar

[Komtur]

Ribbon bar of Dr. Karl Tellgmann

[Komtur]

And finally an extra for RR

Any additional information on that topic or the persons of Remmert and Tellgmann is welcome.

Kind regards, Komtur.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Komtur

[Mike Dwyer]

The awards of the Royal Prussian House Order of Hohenzollern by Wilhelm II continued after 1918 in his Amerongen and Doorn exile. Strictly spoken these were not real awards of orders, because the Ex-Kaiser had no more official right to honour persons with these decorations. But the Kaiser did not care about that, promoted officers and distributed various titles and orders.

Some may disagree with what I'm about to say, but I have to respond. There is a difference between House or Dynastic Orders and National Orders. The chivalric community has long recognized that House Orders belong to that particular house and are not owned by the nation. They are a personal gift of the head of the house. I know nothing about what the German laws were after 1918, they may have outlawed the awarding of such orders by the former Kaiser, but outside Germany that is meaningless. As a House or Dynastic Order the Kaiser had full legal authority to award the Royal Prussian House Order of Hohenzollern, although to do so inside Germany might have violated German law. The current head of the royal house of Prussia, Georg Friedrich Prinz von Preu?en, could award the HHO right now, if he chose to, and it would be considered perfectly legitimate by the international chivalric community. Again, what the national law says may change the situation inside the country, but that has no effect on acts outside the country.

There are many former ruling houses today that still award their house orders for a variety of reasons. Some for good reasons, some simply for monetrary contributions.

The International Commission on Orders of Chivalry (ICOC) has a list, http://www.icocregister.org/emain.htm, of recognized orders. Under Georg Friedrich Ferdinand Prinz von Preu?en they have listed the Hohenzollern House Order, the Order of the Black Eagle, and the Louise Order as Dynastic Orders that he is still the grand master of. It is his decision whether he wishes to award these orders or not.

I saw an article recently where the current Duke of Anhalt is awarding the Order of Albrecht the Bear again, and I believe the Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha has awarded the Saxe-Ernestine House Order a few times also. I know H.I. & R.H. Archduke Karl of Austria (his father, Archduke Otto gave the grandmastership of the order to him a few years ago) still awards the Golden Fleece. The head of the royal house of Bavaria, Prinz Franz, Duke of Bavaria, still awards their house orders of Saint Hubertus, Saint George, and Saint Theresa.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Mike Dwyer

[Komtur]

Hello Mike,

I must admit I am not fit in complex legal questions. But who is the chivalric community and wich official international organization or wich state cares about the rules of the International Commission on Orders of Chivalry? "Although not recognised by any international treaty, an organisation exists which seeks to provide criteria against which to judge Orders of Chivalry: the International Commission on Orders of Chivalry" one can read in Wikipedia if you search for chivalry orders. There is a point of view like yours, but "A minority of scholars disagree, arguing that a non-reigning claimant to a throne cannot continue an order of chivalry." is also written there. So at least there is a discussion about it in the community. For my opinion, there is a necessary criteria for the legitimation to award orders and decorations: you have to be a head of a state (or a similar orginaziation with international appreciation) with all its power behind. As I stated in the beginning, I am not an expert in law, that is only my humble opinion.

With kind regards, Komtur

[Les]

Hello Mike,

I must admit I am not fit in complex legal questions. But who is the chivalric community and wich official international organization or wich state cares about the rules of the International Commission on Orders of Chivalry? "Although not recognised by any international treaty, an organisation exists which seeks to provide criteria against which to judge Orders of Chivalry: the International Commission on Orders of Chivalry" one can read in Wikipedia if you search for chivalry orders. There is a point of view like yours, but "A minority of scholars disagree, arguing that a non-reigning claimant to a throne cannot continue an order of chivalry." is also written there. So at least there is a discussion about it in the community. For my opinion, there is a necessary criteria for the legitimation to award orders and decorations: you have to be a head of a state (or a similar orginaziation with international appreciation) with all its power behind. As I stated in the beginning, I am not an expert in law, that is only my humble opinion.

With kind regards, Komtur

The Kaiser and Kronprinz both signed the same abdication document, which forever gave up their claims/rights to the Prussian and Imperial thrones.

Considering that father and son both released any royal or Imperial claims (and by extension duties, obligations, so-called rights, etc) the argument can be made that if he also gave up his -legal- "head of family" status, and therefore was no longer the head of any order(s) associated with being the former head of a royal or Imperial family.

Willy does not seem to have been an indepth thinker (otherwise many of the errors leading up to WWI, and it's consequences for Germany) might have been thought out and acted on differently. That said, the finer points of law probably eluded him, and he either didn't know, or if he did, didn't care that he had no right to award household orders of a family of which he was no longer the "head."

Today, the Hohenzollern family may have a head of family, but in the strictest sense of the word, the head of the family, is a pretender to a non-existent throne.

"Prussia" itself was formally dissolved by an Inter-allied Control act in 1947, the terms of which were binding on the later Federal German constitution, and by extension to the unification of the former DDR with the BDR.

The Austriana solution to legal and other problems with the Habsburg's and their noble allies, was to disenfranchise the lot, requiring "von" to be dropped from legal names, and paying attention to more pressing matters instead of dealing with pretenders and their adherents.

The Peasant Revolts of 1517-1519 never stood a chance. Tscahde!

Les

Edited May 28, 2009 by Les

[Guest Rick Research]

I've got nothing on Tellgmann or Remmert. Tellgmann must have gone back into Wehramcht service zV-- exchanging his old XXV for the double Wehrmacht awards while in uniform again? VERY nice group!

The name "Tellgmann" rings bells, but I think that was somebody in the family (very ofdd name) who was a die cutter for Bulgarian awards under Tsar Ferdinand.

Unless the Bundesrepublik has changed something-- which I doubt-- Hitler's Ordensverbot of 1935 ended legal bestowals of dynastic awards.

These Hohenzollerns were ACCEPTED as legal and worn in unifrom. The Luftwaffe attach? in Japan during the war was one of the exile HOH3 recipients and wore it.

Many years ago I remember reading something to the effect that the Kaiser had accepted Hitler's Verbot and since then ONLY members of the former royal families have had any LEGAL (trather than moral) "right" to make awards within their own families.

I know from working on Rolls that the Prince of Hohenzollern kept right on awarding his decorations both to local former subjects and to foreign subjects of Hohenzollern kin who were then ruling in Romania.

Anhalt is another case entirely, having totally disgraced itself by the wholesale adult-adoptions-for-cash scandal of the 1980s.

[Komtur]

The name "Tellgmann" rings bells ...

... These Hohenzollerns were ACCEPTED as legal and worn in unifrom. The Luftwaffe attach? in Japan during the war was one of the exile HOH3 recipients and wore it. ...

May be these bells: http://www.dhm.de/magazine/fotografen/tellgmann.html

Don?t know if they are related. But the Tellgmann photographer dynasty could have the possibility to bring a poor Stabsarzt cousin near to the Kaiser for medical service.

If you have a picture of the Luftwaffe attach? in Japan with this order, could you please show it?

BTW I found Tellgmann in the 1924 Reichswehr ranklist:

Edited May 29, 2009 by Komtur

[VtwinVince]

Good point, Rick, the House of Anhalt has become a standing joke in Germany, and I believe Zsa Zsa Gabor is married currently to a pretender to this house with absolutely no credentials. On the subject of the 1947 dissolution of Prussia, I was under the assumption that this was done unilaterally by the Russians.

[Les]

Good point, Rick, the House of Anhalt has become a standing joke in Germany, and I believe Zsa Zsa Gabor is married currently to a pretender to this house with absolutely no credentials. On the subject of the 1947 dissolution of Prussia, I was under the assumption that this was done unilaterally by the Russians.

Vince, the dissolution was by agreement between the Soviets and Western Allies (France, Russia, the UK and the USA). It was not unilateral by the Soviets. Here's the full text:

Territorial Reorganization Inside Germany

ABOLITION OF THE STATE OF PRUSSIA

Control Council Law No. 46 and Excerpt from Report of Military Governor

[ February 25, 1947]

The Prussian State which from early days has been a bearer of militarism and reaction in Germany has de facto ceased to exist.

Guided by the interests of preservation of peace and security of peoples and with the desire to assure further reconstruction of the political life of Germany on a democratic basis, the Control Council enacts as follows:

Article I

The Prussian State together with its central government and all its agencies is abolished.

Article II

Territories which were a part of the Prussian State and which are at present under the su?preme authority of the Control Council will receive the status of Laender or will be ab?sorbed into Laender.

The provisions of this Article are subject to such revision and other provisions as may be agreed upon by the Allied Control Authority, or as may be laid down in the future Constitu?tion of Germany.

Article III

The State and administrative functions as well as the assets and liabilities of the former Prussian State will be transferred to appropri?ate Laender, subject to such agreements as may be necessary and made by the Allied Control Authority.

Article IV

This law becomes effective on the day of its signature.

Done at Berlin on 25 February 1947.

P. KOENIG,

G?n?ral d'Arm?e

V. SOKOLOVSKY,

Marshal of the Soviet Union

LUCIUS D. CLAY

for JOSEPH T. MCNARNEY,

General

B. H. ROBERTSON

for Sir SHOLTO DOUGLAS

Marshal of the Royal Air Force

[ February 1947]

Control Council Law No. 46, signed on 25 February, liquidates the State of Prussia, its central government, and all its agencies. This law is in the nature of a confirming action; the eleven provinces and administrative dis?tricts of prewar Prussia have since the begin?ning of the occupation been split up among theSoviet, British, and U.S. Zones and Poland.17

____________________

17 Excerpt from Legal and Judicial Affairs ( Bimonthly Review), OMGUS Report No. 20, Jan. 1-Feb. 28, 1947.

Publication Information: Book Title: Germany, 1947-1949: The Story in Documents. Contributors: U.S. Dept. of State - orgname. Publisher: U.S. Govt. Print. Off.. Place of Publication: Washington, DC. Publication Year: 1950. Page Number: 151.

[Mike Dwyer]

Hello Mike,

I must admit I am not fit in complex legal questions. But who is the chivalric community and wich official international organization or wich state cares about the rules of the International Commission on Orders of Chivalry? "Although not recognised by any international treaty, an organisation exists which seeks to provide criteria against which to judge Orders of Chivalry: the International Commission on Orders of Chivalry" one can read in Wikipedia if you search for chivalry orders. There is a point of view like yours, but "A minority of scholars disagree, arguing that a non-reigning claimant to a throne cannot continue an order of chivalry." is also written there. So at least there is a discussion about it in the community. For my opinion, there is a necessary criteria for the legitimation to award orders and decorations: you have to be a head of a state (or a similar orginaziation with international appreciation) with all its power behind. As I stated in the beginning, I am not an expert in law, that is only my humble opinion.

With kind regards, Komtur

Hi, Komtur,

The ICOC is about the only thing we have that has made any real attempt to work out the twisted trail of "legitimate" and "fake" orders. I fully agree that the ICOC has no power or authority. I think the key to your second quote is, "A minority of scholars disagree..." The majority, from what I've read, seem to agree that former ruling houses can still award their personal family orders, since they are family or dynastic orders, not national ones. From this point of view, the HHO is an order of the royal family of Prussia, not from the state of Prussia. I, as I'm sure you can tell, firmly believe in this view of the situation. By chivalric community I mean those who are scholars of orders of chivalry, who study chivlary, and are much more learned than I about these matters.

I apologize if I hijacked your thread, I didn't mean to cause a disturbance, I just felt that the other view of the house order situation needed to be heard. It seems like I see only one side expressed on the forum. I thoroughly enjoyed the photos and the typewritten award document. The crosses you showed are very beautiful, the HHO is my second favorite order.

Yes, Anhalt has pretty much destroyed its reputation in a number of ways. They aren't alone, there are others I know of that will make you a knight, or knight commander, of what I believe to be a legitimate house order, for only a few thousand of your hard earned dollars or Euros or whatever currency you use. But kings have been selling orders and titles since the dawn of time, it goes with the territory.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Mike Dwyer

[VtwinVince]

Thanks for the details, Les, that's very interesting. My father was East Prussian, and he was very annoyed about this "abolition" of his homeland. He always claimed that the UN Charter was inherently racist, because it provided no provisions for displaced Germans such as himself. I'm referring to the resolution of the right of return of war-displaced refugees. He did not see his homeland again until 1992, shortly before he died.

[Komtur]

... I apologize if I hijacked your thread, I didn't mean to cause a disturbance, I just felt that the other view of the house order situation needed to be heard. It seems like I see only one side expressed on the forum. I thoroughly enjoyed the photos and the typewritten award document. The crosses you showed are very beautiful, the HHO is my second favorite order. ...

No problem, you are welcome and I am not disturbed at all. It is an intersting point you made. We are here to discuss such questions in a polite manner and I hope that happened also with my limited possibilities in the English language in this thread.

The HOH is my FIRST FAVORITE order , so I hope that there will be a few more answers in this thread focussing to its exile awards and the showed groups of orders.

Best regards, Komtur.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Komtur

[Mike Dwyer]

The HOH is my FIRST FAVORITE order , so I hope that there will be a few more answers in this thread focussing to its exile awards and the showed groups of orders.

I became quickly addicted to the Braunschweig Order of Henry the Lion!!! The Hohenzollern House Order is my second favorite, followed by the Pour le Merite.

[Mike Dwyer]

Thanks for the details, Les, that's very interesting. My father was East Prussian, and he was very annoyed about this "abolition" of his homeland. He always claimed that the UN Charter was inherently racist, because it provided no provisions for displaced Germans such as himself. I'm referring to the resolution of the right of return of war-displaced refugees. He did not see his homeland again until 1992, shortly before he died.

I've always had a bit of "heartburn" about that too. To place blame for something on a state and then abolish it after subjegating it is a bit racist or anti-whatever-it-should-be-called. It's kind of like the allied propaganda that tried to place ALL of the blame for WW1 on Kaiser Wilhelm, like he started the whole thing personally. There were many, many factors that led to the war, and the allies weren't nearly as blameless as they've always claimed to be, in my opinion.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Mike Dwyer