The Royal Marines

[leigh kitchen]

The first man has a decorative cord twisted around the chinstrap of his cap:

I'm not sure if the second man is wearing a khaki SD cap or the blue cap with red band & leather peak of the sort provided by the British for POWs.

He wears "RMLI" shoulder title:

Edited June 12, 2009 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

Another close up of the cap badge - it has a King's Crown above & a Union Flag in colours in the centre, & I reckon that the strap containing the flag is probably the Royal Garter?

[leigh kitchen]

This man wears the unknown badge above a Royal Marines collar badge (which was also used as the cap badge of the Royal Marine Engineers) or possibly the RMLI cap badge, it's hard to tell if there's a strnged bugle above the wreath & globe.

The unknown badge I think I saw once on ana auction site illustration, I think it was enamelled, not sure now.

Edited June 12, 2009 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

It looks like the trousers worn vary, khaki SD, white work trousers? & POW darrk blue with red insert stripes.

[leigh kitchen]

The reverse of the photo:

[leigh kitchen]

A Postcard sent by Pte Steele - from "Uncle John in Holland" -"I am out of Germany" - a POW being repatriated via Holland presumably at the end of WWI.

Unfortunately there's no date on the card:

[leigh kitchen]

The reverse:

[Mervyn Mitton]

The swagger stick, I mentioned. 26.5 inches long (67cm). Will be interested if it was NCO's or, officers ?

[Mervyn Mitton]

[leigh kitchen]

Identical to the one I have other than the Kings Crown on yours, a few details of the crest design, & the fact that the one youshow appears to be a bit longer. Also, this ERII one is of white metal or plated brass - yours is of silver?

When I got mine off a RM NCO back in 1979 I was told that they were for ORs & NCOs.

Edited May 7, 2010 by leigh kitchen

[Jim Maclean]

Worn as a cheap version of the officers badge, this example consists of the officers crown & lion (this example is also a pin fitting) but with an OR's gold anod collar badge instead of the officer's bi-anod.

The reason being that the OR's collar badge cost a few pence from the stores whereas the oficers collar badge cost over ?3.

Colour Sargeants wore this example, WOs wore the Globe and Laurel in gold and silver anodised if I recall correctly. Sargeants and below wore the one piece badge.

Edited June 15, 2009 by leigh kitchen

[Jim Maclean]

Just to clarify post #43 a little. The bronzed badges are worn on the beret, the anodised badges on the peaked cap, I have on occasion seen RMs wearing a beret with blues.

Now that the RM bands no longer wear the green beret but the blue beret with red tombstone it would be interesting to look at their badges. I remember back in the mid 70s the Royal Marines band on HMS Ark Royal wearing green berets even though not having done the all arms course. I can't remember any bandsman wearing bronzed badges even on the green beret. I don't know when they lost the right to wear the green beret but as far as I know they were still wearing it when I left the mob in '79.

[leigh kitchen]

Colour Sargeants wore this example, WOs wore the Globe and Laurel in gold and silver anodised if I recall correctly. Sargeants and below wore the one piece badge.

From what I saw in the 1970's, WO's wore officer style badges, eg the two piece bronzed badge - I have one that I got from a Commando WOII.

Officers bought the ORs anod collar dog in lieu of the bi-anod laurel & wreath of their cap badge / collar dog as an economy measure, according to the Commando CQMS I got these & other items from.

[leigh kitchen]

Just to clarify post #43 a little. The bronzed badges are worn on the beret, the anodised badges on the peaked cap, I have on occasion seen RMs wearing a beret with blues.

Now that the RM bands no longer wear the green beret but the blue beret with red tombstone it would be interesting to look at their badges. I remember back in the mid 70s the Royal Marines band on HMS Ark Royal wearing green berets even though not having done the all arms course. I can't remember any bandsman wearing bronzed badges even on the green beret. I don't know when they lost the right to wear the green beret but as far as I know they were still wearing it when I left the mob in '79.

I did'nt know that the Bands had lost the green beret, but then I had'nt put much thought into their headgear other then the Wolesley helmet.

I have'nt got any band badges, I don't know what they've been whittled down to now.

I did'nt mention that RM Cadets wear the blue beret with red tombstone & gold anod badge.

You must have some RM stuff Jim (hey, & I just picked up some RND shoulder titles today - Benbow, Drake, Nelson & RND, if they make it here ok from New Zealand - another thread to start, RND).

[Jim Maclean]

No I don't have anything special RM wise except Artillery and Infantry helmet plates which may or may not be genuine, you just can't tell these days with some stuff. I think I have two Artillery helmet plates and they both have correct reinforcing disc to the back of the grenade. I can post pics if you want. Royal Marine badges would make a magnificent collection on their own.

I envy you those RND shoulder titles every time I see them I get outbid. I can maybe help on the thread with pics of the cap badges as apart from the RND Machine Gunners I believe I have a genuine example of each, naturally I've also got a fake of each so I can do some comparisons.

I did'nt know that the Bands had lost the green beret, but then I had'nt put much thought into their headgear other then the Wolesley helmet.

I have'nt got any band badges, I don't know what they've been whittled down to now.

I did'nt mention that RM Cadets wear the blue beret with red tombstone & gold anod badge.

You must have some RM stuff Jim (hey, & I just picked up some RND shoulder titles today - Benbow, Drake, Nelson & RND, if they make it here ok from New Zealand - another thread to start, RND).

[leigh kitchen]

Excellent, want to start up a thread on RND then/ I'll join in in a few days.

I do hope it was'nt you forcing up the price on the RND shoulder titiles.

I picked up a couple of fake RND at auction, along with genuine, & my Drake has the oak wreath sections replaced with bits of laurel wreath off a Norfolk cap badge.

Let's see the RM stuff you've got please?

And you must have won a few torn off RM cloth insignia from bar room brawls.

[Jim Maclean]

Excellent, want to start up a thread on RND then/ I'll join in in a few days.

I do hope it was'nt you forcing up the price on the RND shoulder titiles.

I picked up a couple of fake RND at auction, along with genuine, & my Drake has the oak wreath sections replaced with bits of laurel wreath off a Norfolk cap badge.

It'll take me a couple of days to dig them out and photograph them.

Let's see the RM stuff you've got please?

I'll photograph the helmet plates at the same time.

And you must have won a few torn off RM cloth insignia from bar room brawls.

I've got a bootneck's ear is that any good? Seriously though the only real bar room brawl souvenier form a bootneck is from a night in Mr Harry's club in Guzz in the mid 70s is above my right eye. When I cleared the blood away said Royal was an unconscious snotty heap about 20 feet away. My mate who played water polo for the RN and was bigger and harder than most booties had sorted him out, he was watching closely and waiting for things to develope, which they did.

That's the only friction ever with a bootneck. So many times they've got me out of the mire. Probably not the appropriate place but I have the greatest respect for the Corps and wish them well in these hard times. :beer:

[leigh kitchen]

A couple of days is faster than I can find most of my stuff, & helmet plates would be good - I only have the Kings & QEII CRown RM helmet plates.

I never had anything to do with RM, apart from being attached to a unit with a few & living at their barracks at Ballykelly for a while, far more civilised & less painful experience than some of yours by the sound of it.

Is the ear now on a keyring?

[Coldstream2]

They were introduced at the time Mr Broderick was Minister for War or whatever so he got lumbered with his name being applied to this much disliked form of headgear. The caps were based on the German style. They had coloured patches in facing colour behind the cap badge. When they were dispensed with by most of the army, peaks were added to convert them to "viors", but I think that the Guards kept them a while longer & the Marines kept them for a couple of decades.

The Royal Marines actually retained the Brodrick cap into the late 20s. They were replaced by the peaked cap, the initial issue being Brodericks with peak added! For a cap which was supposedly despised, it was retained by the Jollies far longer than the army. The Army adopted the cap in November 1900. It was initially issued to the newly formed Irish Guards (Guards pattern with colored band - green for IG). The rest of the army had their patterns sealed in July 1902. The cap was phased out beginning in 1906 and was gradually replaced by the peaked cap which remains the #1 dress cap today.

B.W. Cox and M. Prevezer, in an article on the Brodrick Cap appearing in the Winter 1982 number of the Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research, stated that "little contemporary evidence of its initial unpopularity has been found and certainly the relatively cheap cost of its manufacture made it popular with the authorities." Private Frank Richards of the 2nd Battalion, Royal Welch Fusiliers, in Old Soldier Sahib (an account of his pre-WW1 service) , described the cap as similar to "a sailor's cap with a small piece of red in front [for "Royal" infantry regiments], over which was worn the regimental badge." Richards further commented that the cap "made them look like a lot of bloody German sailors, but we much preferred it to the peaked cap which followed it (italics mine)...They [the peaked cap] were rotten caps to carry in a man's haversack." The 17th (Duke of Cambridge's Own) Lancers were still wearing their Brodricks aboard ship enroute to France from India in the fall of 1914!!

[TS Allen]

I was under the impression the Broderick cap was also a particularly rigidly formed item. Why was it so much easier to store "crushed" than the peaked cap?

(And no, despite how that question is posed, I don't expect an answer from Pte. Richards . I'm sure someone here has an answer.)

~TS

Edited July 12, 2009 by TS Allen

[Coldstream2]

I was under the impression the Broderick cap was also a particularly rigidly formed item. Why was it so much easier to store "crushed" than the peaked cap?

(And no, despite how that question is posed, I don't expect an answer from Pte. Richards . I'm sure someone here has an answer.)

~TS

Not being able to contact any survivor from the period, I can only surmise that, not having a jutting peak, the cap would be easily inserted into the haversack. I have seen photographs of the Guards with separate carrying bags for their peaked caps prior to 1914. I have not noticed line infantry with the same bag. During change of station prior to WW1, infantry wore their Review Order home service helmets while wearing their service dress. It would have been even more difficult to carry them in their haversack!

Incidentally, when I was serving in the U.S. Army in the late 60s, I used to have a terrible time stowing my service cap (peaked) in my duffle bag. It would always get crushed! Had there been no peak, things would have been easier.

[leigh kitchen]

That's the beauty of only being issued a Fusiliers beret - shove it in a pocket. Got a nice pic somewhere of pre WWI Guardsmen route marching in khaki service dress, bearskins slung in bags off their webbing.

[TS Allen]

Okay, I can understand the colored service caps, but, bearskins? They didn't also slug around their full dress with them when in service dress, did they? Or did they wear the bearskin with service dress?

~TS

[coldstream]

Picking up on Jim and Leigh's comments about Royal Marine bands here is a photo which I believe shows a Bandsman around the 1920's or 30's.

He wears a bandsmans lyre device at the collars and one piece white metal badge. His dark tunic bears only a left chest pocket and you can make out two long service chevrons to the left sleeve. It appears that he is pictured onboard ship, would all ships have RM Drummers or Bandsmen onboard? or perhaps he is part of a band on route to a foreign posting?

[The Saint]

Great thread so far.

Here are a few additions.

RMLI glengarry badge :