Beau Newman Posted June 20, 2009 Posted June 20, 2009 Heiko's fantastic photo brought this to mind. I got this old framed document from a mail auction many years ago (very cheap, it's not very impressive looking). I believe that there are decent records on the Prussian MVK. Is there any way to find out what action the recipient (Johannes Berthold - IR 396) recieved this for?
Guest Rick Research Posted June 20, 2009 Posted June 20, 2009 :Cat-Scratch: Please God tell me you got the entire group from the October 21, 1993 Manion's and it hasn't been scattered to the winds.Research Gnomes never forget a world class group-- even from "The Back Streets of Collecting?"
Beau Newman Posted June 20, 2009 Author Posted June 20, 2009 Unfortunately, this is the only piece I have.
Guest Rick Research Posted June 20, 2009 Posted June 20, 2009 **** **** **** Documents, medal bar (GMVK worn from button hole not mounted), ribbon bar, photos, Milit?rpa?, civil service stuff, letters of recommendation from old officers etc etc et ****ing cetera., **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** Well, ****, his face and all that (there were LOTS of photos) is now Christ knows where but at least I can tell you that he had both Iron Crosses (of course), both classes of MMV2 (at least the dates will be retrievable from the Schwerin Rolls in progress, Reuss Silver Merit Medal with Xs (1918), Hindenburg Cross X, Prussian XV (1920), Third Reich 25 Years Treudienst Cross and Third Reich double-dipping ZOLL Long Service Cross. Could not tell you his ultimate Customs/Border Guard rank etc since one newsprint quality image of entire lot in a heap. **** **** **** That's so distracted me, forgot to look up when and where and in what his regiment was at time of this supreme award. I've been rummaging through 20 years of Manion's catalogs until I found that. **** **** **** Split away from the group, that medal and ribbon bar won't even be recognizable as his. **** **** ****
Guest Rick Research Posted June 20, 2009 Posted June 20, 2009 BEFORE the destruction of the single most complete GMVK group I've ever see come on the market in 40+ years of collecting:Jesus wept.
Guest Rick Research Posted June 21, 2009 Posted June 21, 2009 Aside from the named documents and IDs, the ONLY part of this that can ever hope to be found and identified again is the medal bar above.Inf RGt 396 was in 6th Inf Div. In France, but not being sure of paperwork processing delays on GMVKs, don't know how far back one would actually have to look for what finally earned it for him.I'd say try for a regimental history, if theree is one. He ought to be mentioned.At least the single most important piece of paper has found a good hoime.
Beau Newman Posted June 21, 2009 Author Posted June 21, 2009 I'm glad to have it but it is frustrating that whoever originally bought this group apparently chose to break it up.
Les Posted June 21, 2009 Posted June 21, 2009 (edited) I'm glad to have it but it is frustrating that whoever originally bought this group apparently chose to break it up.Or he might have died and his heirs, or someone that sold it for them/him split it up?Beau...there is a regimental history. Check out:http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/Verlustliste...396_brb_wk1.htmLes Edited June 21, 2009 by Les
Beau Newman Posted June 21, 2009 Author Posted June 21, 2009 Thanks - That lists over 1,000 killed in a single regiment. That probably means at least another 3,000 wounded. Very grim.
VtwinVince Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 That's a great document, pity about the historical integrity of the group being destroyed. You don't see documents to the MVK every day.
Guest Rick Research Posted July 27, 2009 Posted July 27, 2009 Well. I have just returned from Very Far Away and am not only pleased but THRILLED to be able to relate that I have had MOST of this group in my very paws. All the awards shown in the Manion's sale, most of the documents and photos, etincredible cetera. Here is what is perhaps the best part-- asdide from knowing that 2 Good Homes are where these have been (mostly) all along-- there were--inexplicably-- TWO award documents fror the Gold Military Merit Cross. Yes kiddos. TWO. Beau's framed one... and with the group-- and apparently THE one WITH the group (and so Beau's was long separated BEFORE that) is an identical one neatly labelled "Zweite Ausführung." Identical otherwise, and so would have to have been done before war's end. His service record (Kriegstammrollenauszug) Revealed All-- started the war in Inf Rgt 24 ("Chef" was the ruler of Mecklenburg-Schwerein), moved to Inf Rgt 396 (where he managed to get in both the Somme AND Verdun), and ... as the final piece in a great mystery-- the Gold Reuß Merit Medal with Swords on War Ribbon as... a native born subject of Reuß. 16 years of sleepless nights, worrying... now over. PS He was wounded 3 times, the last mere days after receiving a missing Black Wound Badge/document.
TacHel Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 Yes Rick... P-L-E-A-S-E tell us you took pictures! And let's see them!
Les Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 And where did you see that Rick, not Chantilly? A bunker in the woods of Stafford County, Virginia would be where to look.
NavalMark Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 Sorry gentlemen, are you shure that what we see in post #2 is written by hand ? In my eyes it is a fotomechanic copy. The loss of toner particular is significant. Regards NavalMark
Imperial Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 Hope I am wrong and will happily be, but I must agree, the document has some anomalies that seem to indicate a photocopy, and an older one at that. Look at the seam along the fold in the middle. Unless the paper has somehow stretched or is deeply scored that could be toner lifting from the center of the lettering. Also, there is what appears to be a copied hole punch that has again been punched through (I can't see the document as I write this but it is near the top, with a dimple sitting next to one of the punched holes) Also, (and this might just be because of a low-res image)the detail appears to show script broken as in an older photocopy machine. Also, this document is in a frame. Did it come that way? Can it be removed? I once owned a 1870 EKII doc that I thought was an original, as it was copied onto old looking parchment paper, but it turned out to be a repro. There are also a number of specks in the open areas, which may indicate dust on the glass of a copier. Again, I am speculating, but would love to see the doc removed from its frame and a closeup of the center line. Cheers, Imperial
NavalMark Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 Perhaps Mr. Newman can check it with a magnifier or microscope ? NavalMark
Guest Rick Research Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 No camera and my Magic Epson is not portable. Sorry, only Live In Paws inspection... and believe me, very thorough inspection. That one's been haunting me for Lo These Many Years. Rather deflated the owner, hoping to surprise and delight me, that I knew the recipient's name already before it was completely unwrapped! Don-- I dunno where it was. It was dark, and I don't know your neck of the woods as well as mine. Apparently passed through the entire Manassas battlefield in a Cecil B. DeMille Biblical epic thunderstorm. You know Yankees have to be careful down there after dark! The document still WITH the group said "Second Copy." I have NEVER seen a post-1918 "duplicate," so can only surmise there was some paperwork snafu with him being wounded and away from his unit and SOMEHOW the Orders Chancery issued two Urkunden. Oddly enough, he ended his career where he had started it-- as an NCO School instructor. Same school. Full circle!
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