Imperial Fakes

[PJS]

Hi,

I have been a keen collector of Third Reich medals and badges for quite some years but recently started to collect a few Imperial items. To be honest I am sick of the cries "this is a fake" and "that is a fake" with third reich items (I have no doubt some are but some are most certainly not) and for me it has tainted the hobby somewhat. Anyway, I am very keen on Bavarian medals and have started to buy a couple and I would like to know from you guys in the know, are there many Imperial fakes out there. I realise EK's are faked across the board and some Prussian high end medals but does anyone know of fake Bavarian or Saxony medals. Also is their a single good reference book which could be recommended to me. Thanks in advance.

Phil :cheers:

[Ulsterman]

Imperial fakes are fewer than TR, but the "high end" ones are deadlier and more varied.

Most of the "it's a fake" regarding TR are true IMHO. Several world wide firms have been making souvenir pieces-some from the same dies as the originals, since the mid 1950s. One export bill of lading to an American dealer in Maine in 1963 noted "1,000 Iron Cross pin backs" for $1.25 each. These were not dull, made-of-lead bits of crap, but "collector copies" that looked almost the same as the originals. Most collectors do not realize just how widespread the industry is/was two generations ago.

A recent analogy is Iraqi militaria. Six years on and 90% of the stuff available on eBay is post 2003.

By "good book" do you mean about fakes or do you mean about imperial awards?

[Beau Newman]

I have seen some fake Bavarian MVKs, usually rarer types of the 1st and 2nd Class, on ebay. One dealer in Germany offers them on a regular basis. Later castings of the medals are also seen, especially the Bavarian Bravery Medal. I haven't seen many good fakes of the house orders that would pose much of a problem if you have handled a few good pieces.

An excellent reference on Saxon Orders is "Die Orden des Konigreiches Sachsen" by Weber, Arnold and Keil. Copies can sometimes be found on German ebay. Vols. 1 and 3 of Neal O'Connor's "The Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany in World War I" cover Bavaria and Saxony, if you can find them.

[Guest Rick Research]

I wish there WERE a Single Good Reference. After 40+ years and HUNDREDS of "jigsaw puzzle piece" reference books into collecting...

all I can say is this is the place to ask before buying anything you aren't sure of.

In recent years, the most common crime in Imperial is the mass production of Frankenstein fraud medal bars using mostly original awards in idiotic combinations. A few years back there was also a wave of really excellent looking (at least on eBay scans) cast/painted "lifelike" fake COMMON Imperial era awards for entirely new medal bars. I've handled some of these at shows and they'd be really great for movie props-- and shouldn't fool anybody who realizes that German decorations were NOT cast and painted.

The surprising thing is that there ARE still Imperial treasures out there. They are invariably dull, boring looking objects that nobody notices who isn't tuned into the really obscure stuff. As long as you stay away from flying badges, the marketed-as-rare etc etc and that sort of high end bragging trophy stuff, Imperial offers the range to provide a lifetime of happy collecting without any chance of ever coming to The End and having nothing left to look for.

[TacHel]

I've been collecting for 30 years now... At first I stayed away from NAZI stuff simply because I wasn't sure where or how to get it... As my budget increased over the years, so did my knowledge and to this very day, the ONLY NAZI items I have are part of documented sets which span both wars.

There are more NAZI fakes about than genuine articles and many are now so incredibly good that even experts aren't sure, so they tend to call everything a fake. During my last two visits to Germany I found a veritable infestation of repro Deutsche Kreuze in gold and silver. Absolutely magnificent repros that only years of collecting allowed me to identify as such. I found these dealers quite abrasive at anybody with knowledge of ODMs and was somehow told on many occasions they had to close early as I was escorted to the door. Munich is rife with some shops... One, a single merchant was honest with me when I balked at some of his items and prices, he smiled and said "the Americans will buy it, they buy anything with a swastika on it".

I truly hope these peddlers of repros/copies/fakes stay the "H" away from Imperial items!! It would be such a shame to destroy such a beautiful and historic hobby line.

[Les]

Look, read, ask questions, search the archives for pictures and discussions on every forum you've joined. Don't be in a hurry to buy.

Buy a few items, study them closely and consider how they were made. Think about the differences between stamped, and cast items. Also, read a little about some of the art techniques such as "precious metal clays" which are metals mixed with a compound that allows the "clay" to be finely molded and then fired in a low temperature kiln. The additive burns off leaving an almost 99% pure silver or gold metal shaped like the original. If you don't know about this technique and others, pick up a book on jewelry making and learn to recognize the traces of specific manufacturing characteristics the originals should have.

Also get either a good camera, or as Rick R will tell you an Epson scaner and learn how to make copies of medals. Study struck medals for die flaws that originals either should or should not have. Learning to develop an "eye" for these and other details will save you money, and grief.

Ask people if they mind offering you high resolution photos or scans of items that you like. Study individual medals for features, etc that they should and should not have. Then read Rick R's pinned thread on this forum, about ribbon bars, the order in which ribbons (and mounted medals) should be placed on a bar. Look at how mounted medals are put on a back, not only the front, but the pin back arrangment, cloth used, stitching patterns, etc. Some attached devices for particular makers will tell you who mounted a ribbon or medal bar. The label if present, may or may not be real, but there are ways to tell.

Rule number one: Pay close attention to the Cat-java man, and buy an Epson. If he says something, 999 times out of a thousand, he's right on the money.....as long as the subject is directly related to medals, identifying former owners, etc. If "Bear" or someone else tells you a Kodak or some other brand is ever bit as good or better, tell that person, "But Rick says you're on drugs and shouldn't be trusted...." (kidding Barry, kidding....)

Rule number two: don't forget rule number one.

There's more, but that's enough out of me for now. Let's let some of the others chime in.

Les

[Les]

That last post of mine was more about fakes and how to learn about them on your own. It wandered a tad.

The Hammerle firm,maker of orders for the Wittelsbach dynasty, and whose marks appears on many Bavarian medals and order is still in existence. The firm was and is located in Munich, and survived WWII. They still have all of the same dies used to make medals and orders they produced during WWI. However, I have never heard that they have made re strikes. If they did, the Max Joseph's desirability would take a real beating.

If you want to start collecting Bavarian medals on a learn as you go basis, consider collecting ribbon bars with Bavarian medals taking precedent over all other states. Ribbon bars are less costly than fully mounted medal bars, and you can build a large collection relatively quickly with far less money than individual medals or mounted bars will cost you.

That doesn't mean you won't have a fake ribbon bar palmed on you. If it does happen, you won't have spent as much as a mounted bar, or medal. Use the learning curve to build up confidence and knowledge, and pick up some simple mounted medal bars with two or three mounted medals to get your feet wet in that area of collecting.

Go slowly at first.

Les

[PJS]

Thanks guys certainly food for thought. I have been collecting TR badges and other items since about 95 and yes I have been burnt more than once but fortunatly not on anything expensive. Still leaves a sour taste in your mouth though. I guess during that time I have learnt a bit and can most times spot a fake IAB, PAB etc but this Imperial stuff is new to me. I have acquired a nice MVK 3rd class with swords in the case and also the same in second class but again I dont really know what I am looking for yet hence my question about a reference work. A question to you Beau is would you name the dealer who sells the fakes Bavarian MVK's only so as I avoid that person. Can do it in a personal message if you like. Speaking of fake MVK's it was only today whilst searching ebay (I dont normally buy from that source) a spotted a fake MVK 1st class being sold right here in Australia. The only reason I spotted it is that the swords did not look to be in the correct position so I had a closer look and noticed that the symbol on the front of the medal (I think it is an L) was also on the reverse instead of the lion. Now I am only a beginner here but that isnt supposed to be is it?

Many thanks guys I think I will do a bit of posting on this forum before buying.

Phil

Australia

[Claudius]

I could see this being a "class" at a well attended medal's show. A kind of "101" on the basics of recognizing fake medals and bars with a slide show of examples; known fake medals (and why we know they're fake) and medal bar construction (and why this is not correct order/construction).

As long as it doesn't teach the would-be fakers out there anything new! :shame:

[Ulsterman]

The BDOS has run a "Falschung" column for the past 2 decades. Now THAT in a comprehensive book is one that i would buy instantly!

[medalnet]

No worry, there will be a very comprehensive book on the Military Merit Order and crosses out very soon. The best book ever if you read or do not read German.