A better photo of my Great Grandad James Carter

[Jeanette]

This is Great Grandad James Carter again, a much clearer picture. Could he be a Hussar?, born 1861 Iden, Sussex.[this was taken from a slide, the best we have]

Kind regards Jeanette Newton, I put two pics on by mistake, do forgive!.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Jeanette

[leigh kitchen]

I'm trying to work out that arm badge immediately above thehevrons - I'm wondering if it's the number "13" with crown above & diagonal scroll from top right to bottom left - 13th HUssars, that was the design of the cap badge, I don't know if it was worn as an arm badge, I'll keep looking but don't have reference to hand.

[Jeanette]

I'm trying to work out that arm badge immediately above thehevrons - I'm wondering if it's the number "13" with crown above & diagonal scroll from top right to bottom left - 13th HUssars, that was the design of the cap badge, I don't know if it was worn as an arm badge, I'll keep looking but don't have reference to hand.

Thank you,

everyone seems to think he is Hussar, so that really narrows it down, either 8th Hussar or 13th, so it has narrowed my search. I have someone looking for his name in muster rolls, but no luck as of yet, well, he obviously existed, so I am trying to look through any old photo's of the Hussars on the web.Thank you so much everybody, and thanks Leigh.

Kind regards Jeanette Newton.

[leigh kitchen]

8th Hussars arm badge was a crowned harp, introduced 1825, looks like the 13th Hussars did'nt have one.

The medal ribbon - he'd be "the right age" for the 2nd Afghan War, could be the red edged green ribbon of the campaign medal, both the 8th & the 13th Hussars fought in that war, but I would'nt concentrate on those two regiments.

If only that arm badge was clearer.

Edited July 6, 2009 by leigh kitchen

[jagwca]

Leigh, Looking at the arm badge and my old book of badges wondered if it might be the 23rd Hussars.

John

Edited July 7, 2009 by jagwca

[Jeanette]

8th Hussars arm badge was a crowned harp, introduced 1825, looks like the 13th Hussars did'nt have one.

The medal ribbon - he'd be "the right age" for the 2nd Afghan War, could be the red edged green ribbon of the campaign medal, both the 8th & the 13th Hussars fought in that war, but I would'nt concentrate on those two regiments.

If only that arm badge was clearer.

Hi Leigh, someone else suggested it could be a drum?, he could be a Drum Major?, I no idea what that means, what do you honestly think I should follow along the lines of?.Looking with magnifying glass, it certainly resembles a harp. Thank you so much, everything I get is noted down for me to reference.

Kind regards. Jeanette Newton.

[Timothy]

Hi

By the 1890s, as far as I am aware 4 chevron rank badges were almost always worn inverted on the lower arm in the regular cavalry. According to Clothing Regulations for 1894, the highest rank using the rough riders' spur symbol as part of the badge was 'Squadron Sergeant-Major Rough Rider', which used 3 chevrons, crown and spur (plus regimental arm badge if used). However, I have seen 4-bar chevrons on the upper arm in use by permanent instructors of volunteers, and I wonder therefore whether he may in fact be a member of permanent staff in a yeomanry regiment.

[Jeanette]

Hi

By the 1890s, as far as I am aware 4 chevron rank badges were almost always worn inverted on the lower arm in the regular cavalry. According to Clothing Regulations for 1894, the highest rank using the rough riders' spur symbol as part of the badge was 'Squadron Sergeant-Major Rough Rider', which used 3 chevrons, crown and spur (plus regimental arm badge if used). However, I have seen 4-bar chevrons on the upper arm in use by permanent instructors of volunteers, and I wonder therefore whether he may in fact be a member of permanent staff in a yeomanry regiment.

Thank you very much for that,everything seems to point to him being an instructor, and Rough Rider does fit,Grandad said he was an expert horseman.Gives me another direction to follow, so thank you,

Kind regards Jeanette Newton

[Martin W]

This is an area that i know very little about.I do know,as Timothy mentioned,that the spur on the right arm,is the insignia of a "rough rider".

Here is a photo of my grandfather,RA, wearing the spur above the crossed swords on his right arm.The photo is cica 1919.

My father mentioned to me that grandad was a "rough rider".

I beleive he "broke-in" the horses that came over from Ireland to the continent or England?

Regards,Martin.

[Martin W]

Here is a very old,moth bitten example of the "spur" insignia.

Regards,Martin.

[Jeanette]

Here is a very old,moth bitten example of the "spur" insignia.

Regards,Martin.

Wow!, that is fantastic, I haven't seen one of those, only a drawing. I have saved that one to my folder for James Carter.Thank you so much.

Kind regards Jeanette Newton.

[Jeanette]

This is an area that i know very little about.I do know,as Timothy mentioned,that the spur on the right arm,is the insignia of a "rough rider".

Here is a photo of my grandfather,RA, wearing the spur above the crossed swords on his right arm.The photo is cica 1919.

My father mentioned to me that grandad was a "rough rider".

I beleive he "broke-in" the horses that came over from Ireland to the continent or England?

Regards,Martin.

What a fantastic photo,

Kind regards Jeanette Newton.

[leigh kitchen]

If anybody's missed it, there's another thread discussing this photo of James Carter & his insignia etc:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=37346&hl=

(Probably an idea to amalgamate the two threads).

[army historian]

I am going to put my 2 cents in, even though I am not an expert in this field. The ribbon he is wearing is definately the 2nd Afghan Campaign (1878-1880). You said he was born in 1861, so this is possible. There were 4 Hussar Regiments that took part in the 2nd Afghan War:

8th King's Royal Irish Hussars

10th Prince of Wales Own

13th Hussars

15th The kings Hussars

*

Lace on pillbox caps (who had) only older Regimentsbefore 1861.

So drop the 15th Hussars

*

Regiments that worn arm badges:

7th - none

8th - Irish harp

10th - three feathers (Prince of wales)

13th - none

*

So drop the 7th, and 13th

*

This leaves the:

8th King's Royal Irish Hussars

10th Prince of Wales Own

*

You said upper badge on shoulder (under glass) "looks more like Irish harp" (than three feathers)

I believe he was in the 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars.

Also his rank seems to be some form of "Top" Sergeant (Squadron or Regimental). He is also wearing (lowest badge on arm) A Drill Instructor's insignia or Instructor of Marksmanship (Crown over Crossed Rifles). I think if I remember correctly "Instructor of Marksmanship" had about the highest enlisted rank possible.

I hope this helps, Captain George Albert

[leigh kitchen]

Crown over crossed rifles worn lower right arm would be sergeants of best shooting company in infantry regiments & the best shot in each regiment, Musketry Regs 1869.

Clothing Regs 1881 show it as (amongst other corps)for each sergeant of best shooting troop of a cavalry regiment or the cavalry depot. The badge was awarded in recognition of the sergeants role in directing & maintaining discipline in fire.

As a Sergeant Instructor of Musketry's badge it would be worn on the upper right arm, above the four chevrons.

[Jeanette]

If anybody's missed it, there's another thread discussing this photo of James Carter & his insignia etc:

http://gmic.co.uk/in...topic=37346&hl=

(Probably an idea to amalgamate the two threads).

Thank you so much for all that information, I am so grateful, everybody has helped me narrow it down alot, his photo now sits pride of place in my lounge, with so much info accumulated, I have been looking up possible scenario's for him. I t has given me such an insight into the man himself, a man my Grandad was so proud of, but died as a Docker in 1916 in a tragic accident.I have tried to find army records of him, no success thus far though, the only info I have on him, was being born James Carter in 1861, Iden, Sussex.He lived Custom House E16 area and worked on the Docks,so I gather from around the 1900's he must have left the army at some point.Thank you so much for your input sir, I am really grateful.

Kind regards Jeanette Newton.

[Jeanette]

I am going to put my 2 cents in, even though I am not an expert in this field. The ribbon he is wearing is definately the 2nd Afghan Campaign (1878-1880). You said he was born in 1861, so this is possible. There were 4 Hussar Regiments that took part in the 2nd Afghan War:

8th King's Royal Irish Hussars

10th Prince of Wales Own

13th Hussars

15th The kings Hussars

*

Lace on pillbox caps (who had) only older Regimentsbefore 1861.

So drop the 15th Hussars

*

Regiments that worn arm badges:

7th - none

8th - Irish harp

10th - three feathers (Prince of wales)

13th - none

*

So drop the 7th, and 13th

*

This leaves the:

8th King's Royal Irish Hussars

10th Prince of Wales Own

*

You said upper badge on shoulder (under glass) "looks more like Irish harp" (than three feathers)

I believe he was in the 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars.

Also his rank seems to be some form of "Top" Sergeant (Squadron or Regimental). He is also wearing (lowest badge on arm) A Drill Instructor's insignia or Instructor of Marksmanship (Crown over Crossed Rifles). I think if I remember correctly "Instructor of Marksmanship" had about the highest enlisted rank possible.

I hope this helps, Captain George Albert

Thank you so much for your information , this has really helped me a great deal, all I know of James was that he was born around 1861, born Iden, Sussex, died 1916[accident on London Docks]he was then a Docker on leaving the army.

I tried to no avail to find records of him, but no success, I understand it is hard to do that sometimes, as records get lost or destroyed.

But, you have given me a real insight , things I can look up, I have saved all this information to build up what kind of man he was. Thank you very much Captain George Albert, Great Grandad James is framed in a photo, after the other one got destroyed, someone, ripped it from it's original frame and damaged it, years ago.I think he would be pleased to know he is now framed again, he must have been proud of the original photo though, so sad no,one took care of it. My son will be able to look up more on him now, as he is an avid reader of war history.Thank you once again,

Kind regards Jeanette Newton.

Kind regards Jeanette Newton.

[army historian]

Crown over crossed rifles worn lower right arm would be sergeants of best shooting company in infantry regiments & the best shot in each regiment, Musketry Regs 1869.

Clothing Regs 1881 show it as (amongst other corps)for each sergeant of best shooting troop of a cavalry regiment or the cavalry depot. The badge was awarded in recognition of the sergeants role in directing & maintaining discipline in fire.

As a Sergeant Instructor of Musketry's badge it would be worn on the upper right arm, above the four chevrons.

Wow, you have access to the reg's that's great. Oh, by the way can you tell us what his 4 chevorns equates to?

[leigh kitchen]

No, no access to regs - but I have GMIC member "Grumpy Dave's" excellent book "British Army Proficiency Badges"...

4 chevrons, I always have to look them up, RSM's & QMS's wore them at one time, I can never remember the ins & outs of the thngs - Graham will know off the top of his head.

[Timothy]

Ottley Perry's book Rank and Badges (1886 edition) states that at that time there were only two occasions on which a 4-bar chevron was worn above the elbow as shown here: (1) Quartermaster-Sergeants of Foot Guards, and (2) Sergeant-Instructors of Volunteers. All others wearing 4 chevrons wore them below the elbow, point upwards. As I suggested in my earlier post, this probably also applied to the Yeomanry.