Difficult-easy medal bar (wrecked Prussian general?)

[saschaw]

On 23/08/2009 at 17:13, Rick Research said:

Just think of all the other "unsolved mysteries" we already know the answers for...

As Rick asked to see some "new" stuff, here's a medal bar I think I haven't shown before here. When I bought it, it had some phantasy decorations on, but I removed anything that was modern non-sense "replacement". So this is what we could work with:

 

EK2, a Prussian award for 1866 on black-white ribbon (most likely RAO4X, KO4X or MEZ2), DA and a Bavarian MVO - no way to tell which... alive in 1897...

 

All I'm missing is a 1880s rank list to hunt him down...

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by saschaw

[Guest Rick Research]

Nawwww, this is hopeless. What the "guts" are on the inside for tying down the draped ribbons doesn't mean that was what was on top of that spot. I had a nice WW1 pair of Iron Cross and Schaumburg Lippe Cross for Loyal Service in War that the "insides" used Lippe House Order ribbon to tie everything up together.

Missing Place Two could have been a Red Eagle 4th Clas or many other things. Whatever was on the last place might have helped, but not just a BMV ribbon.

[saschaw]

The reverse is opened (and Godet, by the way). All other ribbons use matching "guts", so I'm pretty sure assuming there used to be somewhat black and white Prussian in 2nd place. 95% sure, 5% doubts.

 

Are you sure there's still no chance? I know it's nothing to be done in five minutes, but EK + KO4X or RAO4X or MEZ2 + XXV + BMV whatever exactely with one more foreign decoration but nothing else on the bar...

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by saschaw

[saschaw]

By the way, this is the closest I could find. I should have tried in an elderly rank list...

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by saschaw

[Guest Rick Research]

:Cat-Scratch: Really? Matching "guts"? I have never seen such...neatness!

Well, IF the last thing still had its underneath ribbon, but with that missing....

BTW... your "suspect" had TWO more after the Bavarian-- Schweriner and French.

The other problem, of course, is that like a ribbon bar, with the Bavarian pulled off--

1) was it "with Xs" 1891+ for 1870 orrrrrrrrrrr

2) was it a normal peacetime one?

So that ADDS a variable that is sadly invisible.

We are both assuming "no Prussian statute Orders = General" so here are the ONLY suspects I can find:

1) RAO4X-- ZERO

2) MEZ-- ZERO

3) KO4X--- TWO

a) General der Kavallerie aD Gustav von Kuhlmay (1845-1919)-- at medal bar EK2 70, KO4X, XXV, 70, 66, BMV3, Schaumburg SVMX. Off-- RAO2mE, KO1mXaR, BZ2a, MG2a, RumK3, RA2mBr, RSt1.

b) Generalleutnant Charles Philipp Theremin (1837-1924)-- RAO2mE off medal bar, all other awards left on = EK2 70, KO4X, XXV, 70, 66, BMV3, FE4.

I am totally out of my depth as to battle bar entitlements where either of these officer served 1870/71.

BTW-- I did all this searching for you while I was asleep last night. I never rest. Never.

It's scary. :catjava:

[Paul C]

Saschaw, If you need pre-1890 Army rangliste please PM me with your email address. I will send you my catalogue of Ranglisten in PDF format. I have all except 3 int he 1880-90 period.

[saschaw]

On 25/08/2009 at 21:11, Rick Research said:

Really? Matching "guts"? I have never seen such...neatness!

Have you ever slaughtered a GODET bar... ?

 

 

On 25/08/2009 at 21:11, Rick Research said:

BTW... your "suspect" had TWO more after the Bavarian-- Schweriner and French.

Oops sorry, misread the MMV1 amung all those grand crosses as... well, as something else. Definitely not Schlieffen's. He had some more clasps on his 1870 and wore a China medal in steel on a picture I could find (well okay, he did not wear this one in 1897). By the way, on the mentioned picture he wore Prussian only, leaving out his "foreign" stuff. Those guys are making things difficult.

 

On 25/08/2009 at 21:11, Rick Research said:

I am totally out of my depth as to battle bar entitlements where either of these officer served 1870/71.

Me too, but I hope there is anyone reading this thread who is not. Might someone check this, please?

 

 

On 25/08/2009 at 21:11, Rick Research said:

BTW-- I did all this searching for you while I was asleep last night. I never rest. Never.

It's scary.

Indeed it is. Thanks again, hope you were succesfull.

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by saschaw

[saschaw]

General der Kavallerie a. D. Gustav von Kuhlmay (1845-1919) in 1870/71 was a Prem.-Lieut. Georg Louis Gustav Kuhlmay in "Westpreuß. Ulan.=Rgt. 1 and Adjut. b. d. 10. Inf-Division." while later Generalleutnant Theremin was a Hauptmann im Magdeburg. Feld=Art.=Rgt. Nr. 4.

 

Could someone please check if the battle clasps might match to one of these two?

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by saschaw

[arb]

The clasps are a match for the staff of 10. ID. However, I do not think Gustav (von) Kuhlmay is your man. In 1897, as commander of the 29. Kav. Brig., he had the following:

PRAO3mSchl PKrO2mSchwaR PKrO4mSchw EK2 PDK BMV3a SLVMmSchw RumK3 RA2mBr

He went on to become Inspekteur d. 2. Kav. Inspektion

As for FAR 4, only two of the three clasps are a match.

Andy

Can you tell which 1866 cross that is? That will make a difference when looking for the "owner".

Edited August 28, 2009 by arb

[Beau Newman]

According to what I can find, the 10th ID was part of the V. AK, which saw action at these 3 battles, as well as Worth and Mont-Valerien. I don't have any info. on the service of FAR 4.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Beau Newman

[Guest Rick Research]

Didn't know Kuhlmay was ennobled-- hadn't tracked him that far forward. In 1899 he was still plain common Kuhlmay and his Red Eagle had migrated to his neck.

If I don't have any Awards Rolls tasks for this coming winter (summer lasted three weeks after 10 months and it is now close the windows at night again, in August ) I will attampt to re-do Eric Ludvigsen's listings of almost entirely Prussian entitlements to the 1870s battle bars. Unlike his statistical work, which the manuscript format served admirably, this will have to be reorganized and made searchable somehow.

I'll have to think how to DO that, depending on computer or paper formats. I'm working on too many things simultaneously at the moment for that to be a personal priority (not "my" war....)

[saschaw]

Thanks again for your work and this interresting thread!

 

On 28/08/2009 at 23:38, arb said:

Can you tell which 1866 cross that is? That will make a difference when looking for the "owner".

Sure, it's the Königgrätz issue... wonder if this matches Kuhlmay.

 

On 28/08/2009 at 23:38, arb said:

However, I do not think Gustav (von) Kuhlmay is your man.

Hmm why? The here listed awards give a full match. RumK3 is a neck badge and his RAO3S later has gone to neck as RAO2E.

 

Maybe someone (Daniel???) has a picture of him with medal bar?

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by saschaw

[saschaw]

On 29/08/2009 at 09:37, saschaw said:

Sure, it's the Königgrätz issue... wonder if this matches Kuhlmay.

Anyone... ?

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by saschaw

[Guest Rick Research]

Now you understand why--like most mythical and magical beings--the Research Cyborg Collective™©® needs additional human sacrifices er volunteers:

ALL of us, in our aging merely human Mobile Biological Units, are COMPLETELY occupied with the 1914-18 MILITARY end of awards research.

Civilians... not us.

Mid-19th century--in spare time.

There are not so much "niche" spots that somebody could narrowly specialize in as GIGANTIC BOTTOMLESS DATA VOIDS.

Pick one, somebody. Please! :cheers:

[saschaw]

In case you wonder what happened with this group: Many years ago, I sold it to a friend of my fathers who's predominantly a collector of uniforms. After the initial idea to restore one of the possible wearers, he decided to create a possible but non-existent combination by adding an Ernestine house order, knight's cross 1st class in the last position. I don't think the bar will come back to the market anytime soon, but when it does, at some point, it will be better to remember its "story".

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by saschaw