1870/71 Campaign Medal Battle Bars By Units

[Guest Rick Research]

Although have pinned a CORPS/DIVISIONAL sort of "overview" listing here

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3794

the only source that I have encountered for much smaller (in many cases down to specific companies level) listing for the battle bars is a manuscript from the Nachlass of Eric Ludvigsen.

I have a number of questions for you 1870 collectors which I would appreciate input on before considering re-doing Eric's work in a way to make it available to the collecting public.

Here is a sample page:

1) Is there already some published source in this sort of detail? If so, I need not labour away duplicating something that is already available. Not being an 1870 collector, I am woefully ignorant of what IS available for you.

[Guest Rick Research]

2) The manuscript format here requires flipping through ALL the pages looking for partial matches. This medal bar, from my late friend David S's collection illustrates that:

Eric shows NO units entitled to ONLY these three bars...

BUT

quite a few units had these three AND others--

A soldier who missed "Beaugency-Cravant" in the middle (seems rather unlikely?) could have come from Jäger Bn 9 or parts of Feldart Rgt 9

however quite a few MORE units had neatly chronological earlier bars, so a soldier who arrived in the field late as a replacement could quite logically have held just these three bars-- from I./FR 36, part of KR1, UR 2, or HR 16, for instance.

Which leads to my next question

3) rather than this manuscript page format, what "system" would be most useful/usable for you 1870 collectors?

The system of columns used in the Corps/Divisions charts is unworkable for the data which must be entered on smaller units, say "Regiment X except 2 and 4 Companies." Simply would not FIT.

Ideally, anything entered on computer would be searchable "easily" but I have reservations about that as well--

A) as literary executor, it is my role to make Eric's work AVAILABLE. Sending computer files to individual people on demand would not put this work "out there" in a way that would make it READILY available and

Aa) would soon devolve into the Entitled Internet Pirates smug rip-off and non-attribution of work as if it always existed and was never done by a real person

B) in book format, an index to search combinations eludes me at this point. Any ideas? The best I can think of is aalphabetical abbreviations for bars as in "C-N, G-St.P, P see pages X, XY, XYZ..."

This is NOT an "imminent project" since I am working on a number of other tasks at present. Daniel and I have lost 2009 as possible for publishing more (many many more in far far fewer copies next time)of our WW1 award rolls, pushing those off into 2010, and I have taken on other such work for other people.

So back to Question 1-- Has this sort of bars entitlement listing ALREADY BEEN DONE?

(Eric--being Eric --also appended a study of quite small and usually "bar-less" Landwehr OCCUPATION units that will also be included if this is a project I should take on.)

:beer:

[Beau Newman]

Rick -

I'm not sure that it is all that unlikely that an individual soldier could "miss" an action while taking part in those before and after. Sickness or a minor wound could easily account for this.

I'm also not aware of any detailed study below the Corps or Division levels previously published.

[NavalMark]

You know the "Gefechtskalender des deutsch-französischen Krieges 1870-71" herausgegeben vom Großen Generalstab, Abteilung für Kriegsgeschichte, Berlin 1886?

Regards

NavalMark

[Guest Rick Research]

No. As I said, 1870 is not "my" war, so I am unaware of available reference sources on it.

If the title you mentions lists battle bars entitlement then

1) i don't need to spend weeks re-typing Eric's work and

2) is it readily available?

The point is to make data AVAILABLE to the general collecting public which

a) does not have and

b) cannot afford

obscure period reference sources.

[HeikoGrusdat]

Rick and all interested people.....

now some kind of advertisment , I think it is ok when I use these pictures.... I am a member of BDOS myself and please see it as a marketing mission now for new members...

GO AND BECOME A MEMBER OF BDOS

this is the german OMSA....

...then you get these beautiful and very useful journals

- today they look a bit different but important is what is inside!!!

This is Nr.59 from 1994..... there is what Rick is looking for.... very useful , very important.... because now he can plan a new project for himself... :beer:

Edited August 31, 2009 by HeikoGrusdat

[HeikoGrusdat]

there is everything what you need to ID medal bars by battle clasps...... and of course a bit of luck !!!

lists of battles , units , movements of units , units that splitted during the war.... each battle with the active units and so on.... try to get this somewhere on egay or in the antique store around your corner !!!!

(or................ ask very friendly if you can live with copied paper.......... )

Edited August 31, 2009 by HeikoGrusdat

[Guest Rick Research]

Ah, much obliged! I am "rescued" from a considerable effort!

Perhaps the BDOS should consider REPUBLISHING such works in the way that the OMSA publishes specialist monographs.

[NavalMark]

The "Gefechtskalender" is a publication of the Kriegsministerium with at least 215 pages.

It is divided in three parts:

1.) All meetings, struggles, battles ... are listed in chronological order and beside every unit which took part, from company level upwards, is mentioned. The meetings, struggles, battles ........ are numbered from 1 up to 803.

2.)All locations, where a meeting, struggle, battle ..... happended are listed in alphabetical order with the number they got in part 1

3.)All prussian, bavarian and other troops are listed with all the numbers of occasion in which they took part.

Rick, if you send me an adress via PM or email i will make you a paper-copy of this reference.

Regards

NavalMark

[NavalMark]

....units with the number of meeting, struggle, battle .......

please excuse my pigeon-english.

[Ulsterman]

Uh- I have that BDOs magazine and while useful, it does not go into the detail of the Ludvigsen work. It tends to focus on Divisions. I believe I gave you Rick, a copy of this magazine?

Also, isn't the GefechsKaladener on googlebooks?

Most useful would be by Ludvigsens' "unit by Bars on campaign medal index" methodology I reckon:

[Guest Rick Research]

:Cat-Scratch: Naval Mark's book appears to be in amazingly specific far beyond what Eric had-- which is almost entirely only PRUSSIANS.

It also looks FRIGHTENINGLY complicated for trying to easily "read" or figure it out in an easily useful way--

maybe something a crazy fool er eager volunteer might consider working on?

I can't imagine having to remember so many numbers for bars and flipping back and forth to find what the actual combinations really were!

Nope, you didn't copy that magazine for me, because 1870 was never among my interests so it's never come up before. (BTW if you CAN make it to the next GMIC Regional Throng, let me know as the Traveling Museum members are taking "requests" at this point for Show N tell....)

[Ulsterman]

when you say "show and tell", you mean the secret archives might be opened? :rolleyes:

[Guest Rick Research]

One never knows what will go on when the Conclave gathers in Quorum--aside from gourmet eats, prime drinks (for those so inclined) and fine tobacco products (for those so inclined)

Yes, life is not ALL typing for the Research Cyborg Collective. :catjava:

[Claudius]

Uh- I have that BDOs magazine and while useful, it does not go into the detail of the Ludvigsen work. It tends to focus on Divisions. I believe I gave you Rick, a copy of this magazine?

Also, isn't the GefechsKaladener on googlebooks?

Most useful would be by Ludvigsens' "unit by Bars on campaign medal index" methodology I reckon:

What do the most accurate sources say are the bars for this unit?

2nd Hanoverian-77th Regiment, 3rd (Fusilier) Battalion, 9th Company.

I can spot the battles of Gravellotte-St. Privat and Spicheren.

[Guest Rick Research]

I could not say from what I have-- it is arranged by combinations of bars, not listed by units and there is no index.

[Ulsterman]

What do the most accurate sources say are the bars for this unit?

2nd Hanoverian-77th Regiment, 3rd (Fusilier) Battalion, 9th Company.

I can spot the battles of Gravellotte-St. Privat and Spicheren.

wasn't that the subject of a Traditions magazine article back in 1968 or so by Brig. General Young ("Bear")?

[arb]

What do the most accurate sources say are the bars for this unit?

2nd Hanoverian-77th Regiment, 3rd (Fusilier) Battalion, 9th Company.

I can spot the battles of Gravellotte-St. Privat and Spicheren.

From the "Gefechts Kalender des deutsch-franösischen Krieges 1870-71. Herausger Großer Generalstab, E.S. Mittler u. Sohn, Berlin 1886.

Spicheren

Colombey-Nouilly (minus F. Batl.)

Gefecht im Bois de Vaux (minus F. Batl.)

Gravelotte-St. Privat

Einschließung von Metz

Noisseville (minus 6., 7. 9., 10. and 11. comp.)

Belagerung von Diedenhofen

Belagerung von Montmédy

Belagerung von Mézières

Gefecht bei Rimogne und Tremblois (minus 9. and 10. comp.)

I. Batl.

Handstreich auf Rocroy

Avantgarde Gefecht bri Bugnières und Marac

Schamützel vor Langres

Gefecht bei Sombacourt

II. Batl.

Handstreich auf Rocroy

Avantgarde Gefecht bri Bugnières und Marac

Schamützel vor Langres

Gefecht bei Chaffois

Fus. Batl.

Ausfall Gefecht bei Colombey, Peltre und Mercy le Haut

Andy