Unidentified UK Seal/Coat of Arms

[Richard LaTondre]

I would appreciate any help on the identification of the seal attached to a sash belonging to my Great Grandfather.

He was Alfred (Moore) Ensor born in Rugby England about 1847 according to the 1851 England Census. He came to America around 1880. Thank you for your time.

Richard LaTondre

[Mervyn Mitton]

Richard - do you by any chance, know if there is a family latin motto. Sometimes it is easier to look this up. I will look in Fairburn's Crests for you, to see if I can find any trace. Probably Rick will be the best bet.

[Richard LaTondre]

Richard - do you by any chance, know if there is a family latin motto. Sometimes it is easier to look this up. I will look in Fairburn's Crests for you, to see if I can find any trace. Probably Rick will be the best bet.

........I wish that I did. I was a little hesitant about posting this item as it probably is not an item of Military Interest, but things appeared to be a little slow, and who knows . . . . he may have been a Colonel in the British Army!

Thanks for your help,

Dick LaTondre

[Mervyn Mitton]

Dick - there is no LaTondre listed in Fairburn's Crests of the Families of Great Britain and Ireland. However, it was common for families to have different branches. The key will probably be to identify from the crest , which is above the armorials. I can't make it out properly - perhaps you can do a close-up - however, it appears to be a stags head sitting on a coronet. What is in it's mouth ? There is a crest for the Foster family - the stag has an arrow in it's mouth ? Do you know anything about the history of the family - many French names came to Britain when the Protestants fled from Louis 15th. in the 17th C.. My Mother's maiden name was Bozier and they came at that time.I still think Rick is the best person - IM him. Anyway, let's have a close-up and I'll see what turns-up.

[JBFloyd]

As the crest is on a sash, perhaps it is more organizational than personal. The structure of the piece looks more like a piece of lodge or society regalia than a family crest. There are no symbols in the crest that I connect to any particular organization (other than there are no obvious Masonic symbols), but maybe one of our UK members with an interest in fraternal organizations can offer some clues.

[Guest Rick Research]

I can look up families by name but not by crests or mottoes-- Burke's etc.

The image here is so small that I can't make it out clearly but I'm fairly sure those supporters are kilted Scotsmen with feathered bonnets.

I too suspect this is something SCOTTISH fraternal/organizational.

[Ralph]

It looks like it could be a Badge awarded by "The Ancient Order of Foresters", a friendly society formed in 1790

In 1845 the order had 1456 "Courts" (Lodges) with 65,909 Memebrs

1898 it had 4899 courts and 731,442 Members

By the late 19th Century Forsetry had spread over the world, particularly to the British Colonies but also to the USA.

I cannot post a photo of the emblems but a brief description is :

A shield divided by a cross and has an escutcheon in the centre with a bugle horn and bows and arrows. In the top left quarter of the shiled is a pair of clasped hands, in the top right quarter three running stags, in the lower left quarter is a chevron, a lamb and flag above the chevron and a bugle horn below. In the lower left quarter is a quiver over a bow arrow and bugle horn. Above the shiled is a stag's head issuing out of a coronet. Flanking it are the figures of two forester (both male before 1892), one male on female thereafter.

Ralph

[Mervyn Mitton]

So, there you are Dick - you're not a descendent of a Duke !!!

I hadn't thought of Scotsmen - I was thinking Romans or, Greeks. All of the Friendly Societies were copied from Masons and they sprang up in great numbers. They were an early form of insurance and helped with burials and in looking after widows and children. The Foresters were unusual in that they used heraldically decorated truncheons for one of the posts within the Committee.

[Richard LaTondre]

Dick - there is no LaTondre listed in Fairburn's Crests of the Families of Great Britain and Ireland. However, it was common for families to have different branches. The key will probably be to identify from the crest , which is above the armorials. I can't make it out properly - perhaps you can do a close-up - however, it appears to be a stags head sitting on a coronet. What is in it's mouth ? There is a crest for the Foster family - the stag has an arrow in it's mouth ? Do you know anything about the history of the family - many French names came to Britain when the Protestants fled from Louis 15th. in the 17th C.. My Mother's maiden name was Bozier and they came at that time.I still think Rick is the best person - IM him. Anyway, let's have a close-up and I'll see what turns-up.

My Great Grandfather's name was Alfred (Moore) Ensor and I believe that he was born in Warwickshire and his ancestors came from Rdensor ehich perhaps was the origin of the name Ensor. There is nothing in the stags mouth, and I appologize for the poor quality of the image. I will try to make a better one. Thanks for your help.

Dick

[Richard LaTondre]

It looks like it could be a Badge awarded by "The Ancient Order of Foresters", a friendly society formed in 1790

In 1845 the order had 1456 "Courts" (Lodges) with 65,909 Memebrs

1898 it had 4899 courts and 731,442 Members

By the late 19th Century Forsetry had spread over the world, particularly to the British Colonies but also to the USA.

I cannot post a photo of the emblems but a brief description is :

A shield divided by a cross and has an escutcheon in the centre with a bugle horn and bows and arrows. In the top left quarter of the shiled is a pair of clasped hands, in the top right quarter three running stags, in the lower left quarter is a chevron, a lamb and flag above the chevron and a bugle horn below. In the lower left quarter is a quiver over a bow arrow and bugle horn. Above the shiled is a stag's head issuing out of a coronet. Flanking it are the figures of two forester (both male before 1892), one male on female thereafter.

Ralph

Hi Ralph,

I believed that you nailed it! Do you think he could have gotten this sash in Minnesota? He was a lumberjack. Thanks for your expertise.

Dick

[peter monahan]

It looks like it could be a Badge awarded by "The Ancient Order of Foresters", a friendly society formed in 1790

In 1845 the order had 1456 "Courts" (Lodges) with 65,909 Memebrs

1898 it had 4899 courts and 731,442 Members

By the late 19th Century Forsetry had spread over the world, particularly to the British Colonies but also to the USA.

I cannot post a photo of the emblems but a brief description is :

A shield divided by a cross and has an escutcheon in the centre with a bugle horn and bows and arrows. In the top left quarter of the shiled is a pair of clasped hands, in the top right quarter three running stags, in the lower left quarter is a chevron, a lamb and flag above the chevron and a bugle horn below. In the lower left quarter is a quiver over a bow arrow and bugle horn. Above the shiled is a stag's head issuing out of a coronet. Flanking it are the figures of two forester (both male before 1892), one male on female thereafter.

Ralph

"By Jove, I think he's got it!" Well done, that man! I frequently drive by a large office tower in Toronto, Canada owned by the IOF [independent Order of Foresters] which is indeed an insurance company but I don't know what connection, beyond the obvious one of a common foundation, it has with the fraternal order these days. I've certainly not heard of the Foresters as a fraternal group in Canada, at least to the best of my recollection. Anyone else know their current status? "Bueller? Bueller?..."

PETER

[Guest Rick Research]

You are both lucky and unlucky. Ensor is a very unusual name (occasionally one like this crops up which defies explanation as an ENGLISH word).

I've been over to the Mormons online and found in the 1881 British Census an

Alfred "age 30" carpenter, living in Kevesley Heath, parish of Coventry St. Michael in Warwick. Born there. Wife Emily age 28 born Foleshill, Warwick, dressmaker, and at that time 1 child, a moppet Beatrice age 1 born in Kevesley.

Ring any family bells?

If you've got him as born circa 1847 from an 1851 Census (don't have access to that) what were his parents' names/ages and any other siblings?

I don't turn anything up on him after that. Someone of that generation falls into the Pre-Social Security void.

The LDS records are riddled with errors in what was provided by individuals, but government records are usually more reliable. Of course, answers given to Census takers are not necessarily accurate either. My Irish great-grandfather never got his children's ages right and he grew randomly younger over the years.

Alfred Ensor seems to have been a name that was used by several branches of people who must have been cousins over there, suggesting a common grandfather or a remembered great-grandfather. The combination of that first name and that last name is too odd (no offense meant or intended, I refer to the "naming patterns" often vital to following correct family branches) to be random coincidence.

If you want to go into Genealogy here, by all means post away with names and dates and places that you DO have.

My own have been slinking this side of the Hudson for pushing 400 years in some cases (we only travel at government expense, in uniforms ) but from decades of sifting out glitter from dross in the online family tree stuff, always happy if I can help somebody else with roots.

You've got a good start with an odd name and a rather unusual origin ffor American emigrants... I often find that it is possible to get around clogs in a male line by following back the female ones.

[Richard LaTondre]

You are both lucky and unlucky. Ensor is a very unusual name (occasionally one like this crops up which defies explanation as an ENGLISH word).

I've been over to the Mormons online and found in the 1881 British Census an

Alfred "age 30" carpenter, living in Kevesley Heath, parish of Coventry St. Michael in Warwick. Born there. Wife Emily age 28 born Foleshill, Warwick, dressmaker, and at that time 1 child, a moppet Beatrice age 1 born in Kevesley.

Ring any family bells?

I don't turn anything up on him after that. Someone of that generation falls into the Pre-Social Security void.

The LDS records are riddled with errors in what was provided by individuals, but government records are usually more reliable. Of course, answers given to Census takers are not necessarily accurate either. My Irish great-grandfather never got his children's ages right and he grew randomly younger over the years.

Alfred Ensor seems to have been a name that was used by several branches of people who must have been cousins over there, suggesting a common grandfather.

If you want to go into Genealogy here, by all means post away with names and dates and places that you DO have.

My own have been slinking this side of the Hudson for pushing 400 years in some cases (we only travel at government expense, in uniforms ) but from decades of sifting out glitter from dross in the online family tree stuff, always happy if I can help somebody else with roots.

You've got a good start with an odd name and a rather unusual origin ffor American emigrants... I often find that it is possible to get around clogs in a male line by following back the female ones.

Thank you for all of the information and tips about proceeding in this area. The only problem is that the English records indicate that he was adopted by the Ensor family while he was a young lad and his name may have been Moore. I want to thank all of you for being so gracious in sharing your knowlege of peerage. I know nothing about the subject which must be painfully obvious to some of you. I am proud to be a member of such a distinguished group of researchers. Thanks again.

Semper Fi to all,

Dick

[Guest Rick Research]

"Moore Alias Ensor" as my old New England records would have put it.

That is another excellent clue, since adoption/fostering back then was usually connected to KIN-- life was hard enough struggling with one's own children without taking in (and think very small villages/towns) "strangers."

Pursued, I think you will find a link between those two families and Small Albert would have been a cousin by blood to the children of the house he grew up in, possibly on the maternal line since women were more softhearted. My advice is: look for Lost Moores on the side of that Mrs. Ensor. :beer:

[Richard LaTondre]

"Moore Alias Ensor" as my old New England records would have put it.

That is another excellent clue, since adoption/fostering back then was usually connected to KIN-- life was hard enough struggling with one's own children without taking in (and think very small villages/towns) "strangers."

Pursued, I think you will find a link between those two families and Small Albert would have been a cousin by blood to the children of the house he grew up in, possibly on the maternal line since women were more softhearted. My advice is: look for Lost Moores on the side of that Mrs. Ensor.

Thanks for the great tip!

[TacHel]

Hey bud, I believe I found another badge just like yours on this sash of "The Ancient Order of Foresters".

A good look of the crest.

[Richard LaTondre]

Hey bud, I believe I found another badge just like yours on this sash of "The Ancient Order of Foresters".

A good look of the crest.

Thats it exactly! Now we know there's more than one!