Briish Army skill at arms badges & trade badges

[leigh kitchen]

This badge in gold wire & black thread (the blue horizontal stripe on the white flag is represented by a strip of black stitching on black, is I think (forgot & have'nt time to look (the Greenjackets.

Is t post 1960 style, or the smaller a Mess Dress? It's 2" tall by 1 3/4" wide.

[leigh kitchen]

Armoured Car Trade Badge - Armoured Car Crewman, later Class I "B" Tradesman, worn upper right arm, later lower right, worn by The 12th Lancers & later by The 9th / 12th Lancers.

The 12th Lancers were mechanised in 1928, in a reconnaissance role, with Rolls Royce Armoured cars.

The badge was worn upper right arm by all ranks of The 12th Lancers up to WOII, above chevrons & below The Prince of Wales's feathers when worn by NCOs.

Later discontinued, the badge was re-introduced in 1955, mentioned in the regimental journal that year..

In 1960 tThe 12th Lancers amalgamated with the 9th Lancers & the positioning of the badge was changed to the right forearm, WOs now being eligible to wear it between their rank insignia & The POW's feathers.

In 1963 it was discontinued for a short time in No. 2 Dress & was re-introduced in 1972 for wear by Class I Tradesmen.

Anodised badges were produced & worn for a short time but were phased out in favour of brass.

The badge was produced in gold bullion on dark blue cloth, but it is not known if it was produced in other embroidered versions.

"British Army Proficiency Badges" shows a photo of the armoured car badge being worn facing the other way, on the upper left sleeve of a corporal of The Tank Corps, 1919 - 1923, possibly in metal.

This example is in solid die-struck brass, with east / west wire loop fittings, & cost the person who got it for me from The 9th / 12th Lancer's PRI £1.65 in 1989.

[leigh kitchen]

The Trumpeter's badge, an appointment badge worn on the upper right arm (Clothing Warrant 1865).

Seen in photographs either way up, sometimes mixed within the same unit.

Trumpeters of RA & RE wore the badge with an upright sprig of laurel, (bells of trumpets uppermost, (DRRA 1864).

During Victorian times RE & ASC Trumpeters in mounted units & Buglers in foot units wore the version with laurel sprig, which is believed to have phased out in favour of the version swithout laurel sprig during WWI.

[leigh kitchen]

A worsted version of the Trumpeter's badge shown with a brass version for size comparison:

[leigh kitchen]

Bandsman's badge, Royal Artillery, origibally an appointment badge, now a trade badge, introduced about 1856.

Worn lower right arm, riginally on both arms.

Between 1931 - 1950 it was replaced by the small sized lyre, wreath, Crown Bandsman's badge, which, it's thought, was also used outside this period on tropical dress.

The version in gold wire on dark blue cloth, & the small lyre, wreath, King's Crown badge referred to above - the khaki worsted version:

[leigh kitchen]

A Canadian badge, similar to the Brtish Royal Artillery Bandsman's badge but with the addition of a wreath of maple leaves:

[Paul L Murphy]

Here are some more Royal Artillery Band musician's badges, but more recent than those shown by Leigh. We have both the No 1 dress version in bullion and the No 2 dress version in cloth.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2009/post-1487-125459990695.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2009/post-1487-125459989564.jpg

[leigh kitchen]

The Bandsman's badge, originally an appointment now a trade badge, worn upper right arm (Clothng Regs 1888).

in 1886-7 a large version of this badge was introduced into wear by Bandmasters (Clothing Regs 1887), worn by most but not all units, an unofficial "Badges & Dates" publicaton of 1886 made mention of the large badge, but not of the small version being in use. By about 1890 the small badge was featuring in photographs.

The King's Crown khaki worsted version, as shown a couple of posts above, the post c1960 reduced size badge with St Edward's Crown (which replaced the St Ed's Crn version of the khaki worsted), two King's Crown brass badges, one with a dark blue cloth backing (similar to the backing colour of RAF badges, possibly an RAF badge) the other with red on black cloth backing - I got this at the same time I got a 1920's photo of a Northamptonshire Regiment Bandsman in KD, the badge on his sleeve could have been this colour combination. Black was the facing colour of some infantry regiments, including The North Staffordshire Regiment.

Edited October 4, 2009 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

A gold anodised St Edward's Crown badge with red cloth backing. I associate these anodised with red cloth backing with wear in shirt sleeve order.

Edited October 4, 2009 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

Bandsman, "Unoffficial Band", issued to various unofficial bands, including RAF ones, Cadet Corps & sometimes to Band-Boys attached to Bands, prior to 1956.

It's not a Bandsman's badge with the crown snapped off, it's struck as a desgn without a crown, tho' no doubt some Bandsman's badges would be adapted to form this one.

Edited October 4, 2009 by leigh kitchen

[Paul L Murphy]

Here are a few more bandsman's badges. The first is on a cherry red backing so presumably for hussars ?

[Paul L Murphy]

And here we have No2 dress for the Light Infantry, followed by bullion on black on red (presumably full dress for one of the regiments with black facings) and finally a bullion version on dark green (not sure which regiment this is for).

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2009/post-1487-125466032188.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2009/post-1487-125466033475.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2009/post-1487-12546603491.jpg

[tubbyboy]

Here are a few more bandsman's badges. The first is on a cherry red backing so presumably for hussars ?

Or, possibly, if on dull cherry RAMC?

I will post more on this thread tomorrow as this is, pretty much, my main area of expertise...

Tubs

[RobW]

To all,

To add some purely Australian flavour, here is a signaller skills badge, service dress on khaki, c1940.

Regards,

Rob

[Paul L Murphy]

Or, possibly, if on dull cherry RAMC?

I will post more on this thread tomorrow as this is, pretty much, my main area of expertise...

Tubs

Possibly.

I look forward to seeing your posts :cheers:

[leigh kitchen]

Army Recruiter's badge, this version is the post-1962 one, reduced to 3/4 of it's predecessor & instead of a variety of colours of thread, bullion & backing cloth, only with a red backing.

The King's Crown version of the larger badge had lapsed during & post WWII, & the badge was revived as a St Edwards Crown version (WODC January

In 1961 the WODC had been asked to consider a 2/3 size badge of No 1 Dress quality & backing for wear on the new khaki No. 2 Dress, but the decision was to adopt this badge at 3/4 size & in the one version - of coloured thread, gold wire & on red backing cloth.

The "ARMY RECRUITER" cloth shoulder title which had been worn above the previous, larger crossed flags was discarded & the new, smaller crossed flags were now worn only on the right arm of No. 1 & No. 2 Dress.

They are worn above the appropriate substantive rank insgnia.

There is a version without bullion in the design, which was worn on Jersey Heavy Wool's etc.

This badge measures about 3 3/4" inches (85mm) in height & in width.

[leigh kitchen]

A badge that I've had for some years but can't identify. Presumably a "C" Class tradesman in a unit wth Scottish connections, possibly a Commonwealth unit?

[Mervyn Mitton]

You know Leigh - the old saying you 'learn something new everyday' still applies. The lovely badge you have shown above for Army Recruiters - I've never heard of this before. I always thought they were seconded from their regiments , or units, for a period .

This is obviously why our Army has shrunk - they've spent all the money on badges...

[leigh kitchen]

They are seconded, but in the past there were "Paid Pensioner Recruiters".

According to "British Army Proficiency Badges" by Dennis Edwards & David Langley, for some time before 1934, a badge "PPR" was worn by Paid Pensioner Recruiters, replaced by the crossed flags badge worn on both sleeves of the blue serge frock only.

Army Recruiters also wore a shoulder title "ARMY RECRUITER" in gold bullion on blue above the crossed flags, which themselves were above rank badges.

The Army recruiter title, above crossed flags, above 3 x chevrons is shown in a photo c 1935.

Recruiting Sergeant Turner of the Somerset Light Infantry, circa 1927.

He wears the cap & collar badges of the SLI, with "favours" on his cap, presumably in red, white & blue, the Paid Pensioner Recruiters "PPR" insignia on the lower sleeves & a red sash.

He wears the Queens South Africa Medal with 3 x Clasps, The Kings South Africa Medal with 2 x Clasps, 1914 Star with Bar, British War Medal & Victory Medal.

I have another photo somewhere of what will be a Paid Pensioner Recruiter, it's a coloured card & shows the PPR cuff badge in yellow, presumably representing gold bullion, on a red backing (which I assume is a mistake) being worn on the blue uniform.

I've found the card, & I was wrong - I must have been thinking of those cuffs & the crowned royal cypher cap badge - no visible recruiting badges on this man:

Edited November 28, 2009 by leigh kitchen

[Graham Stewart]

I'm still unsure as to why they chose to use the old pattern Colour Sgt's badge, last seen on full dress at the outbreak of WWI, for use by the Recruiter? There must be an AO or ACI somewhere detailing as to how and why it was adopted, replacing the "PPR" badge.

[leigh kitchen]

"Edwards & Langley" comments on the similarity to the 1868 - 1914 Colour Sergeant's badge, indicates that the crossed flags badge was introduced as a replacemnt for "PPR" ( PPR - PVCN 1929) circa 1934, & that the St Ed's Crown version was approved by the War Office Dress Commitee followng the WWII & post war lapse in wearing of the crossed flags (WODC Feb 1953).

[david grumpy]

The early enamelled brass, the plain brass - same sized badges, just I've messed up the res:

any evidence please to support the contention that the enamelled flags badge was 'early', earlier than the plain gilding metal ['brass']?

I ask because neither the Royal Army Clothing Department ledgers, nor Clothing Regs, nor Priced Vocabs [i have complete copies of all this info from c. 1850 to 1950] give any hint of an [expensive to produce] enamel version.

My belief, which is up for challenge, is that the enamelled version is a vanity individual item, or a collective regimental vanity, and that it was never an Ordnance item. India, with its skilled native craftsmen, might be the source of the enamel badges.I think the only proof needed to knock my theory is a Sealed Pattern.

[peter monahan]

The "MG" & "LG" without wreath series of badges were discontinued by Army Council Instruction 23 of 1932, but were still appearing in PVCN 1936 & Small Arms Training Volume 1 of 1937.

It's probable that they were being worn by TA Hotchkiss Gunners, the Hotchkiss was phased out of the Regular Army by 1940, the Regulars had adopted LG in wreath in 1921, it's likely that the TF adopted the "LG" without wreath as it now stood for Light (Machine) Gunner.

The MG & LG series of badges without wreath were declared obsolete by List of Changes in Ordnance Material 5067/52.

You mean you can't qulify for "range taker" by being the fastest 'mouse man' - "By the numbers, point and click!" in yr missile battery? :whistle:

[leigh kitchen]

any evidence please to support the contention that the enamelled flags badge was 'early', earlier than the plain gilding metal ['brass']?

I ask because neither the Royal Army Clothing Department ledgers, nor Clothing Regs, nor Priced Vocabs [i have complete copies of all this info from c. 1850 to 1950] give any hint of an [expensive to produce] enamel version.

My belief, which is up for challenge, is that the enamelled version is a vanity individual item, or a collective regimental vanity, and that it was never an Ordnance item. India, with its skilled native craftsmen, might be the source of the enamel badges.I think the only proof needed to knock my theory is a Sealed Pattern.

The only reference to its being early I can think of offhand is "British Army Proficency Badges".

[david grumpy]

The only reference to its being early I can think of offhand is "British Army Proficency Badges".

Thank you: I don't disown the book, which I co-authored, but if I were to start again today, there would be a lot of changes!