Belgium WW1 Fire Cross

[Tim B]

I guess we must have lost some threads during the upgrade as I couldn't find one of my old posts to continue there? Is it me, or does the search function leave a lot to be desired here? I can't seem to search a topic and just get a list of threads instead of all the possible posts that may have that topic in it??

Anyway...

I recently picked up two more Fire Cross to go with my Type 1. When comparing these to PICS online and reading on Hendrik's site, I see there are die variations to the Types 1 & 2, so I got wondering if we had examples of the different strikes and are any maker's identified yet?

Here's my three:

Tim

Obverse:

[Tim B]

Reverse:

[TacHel]

Here's mine... Think that makes 4. Look at the quaint little differences with all three of yours.

Obverse: cloud pattern at upper left corner, rivets on bayonet, helmet.

Reverse: laurels at upper right, signature, different font.

Edited September 6, 2009 by TacHel

[Gldank]

My opinion is that yours is a type III from a different manufacture. Many of these medals were produced. Here are mine which are slightly different too. Look at the very top leaf at the back of my type III (second picture down). Also for the sake of conversation, I enclosed a picture of a type I one-sided produced for display framing (third picture down).

Edited September 6, 2009 by Gldank

[Gldank]

Reverse

[Gldank]

One sided type I

[TacHel]

Is it my imagination or do they all have different signatures on their reverse?

[Gldank]

Is it my imagination or do they all have different signatures on their reverse?

No, just three different sizes of the same signature.

[Tim B]

I'll try to post my three one at a time (front & reverse) so I can enlarge them a bit.

We know there are different manufacturers of the first two types and perhaps we'll identify more than the one Type 3 that was, to the best of my knowledge, thought to be only one until now.

When comparing PICS, do keep in mind that differences in lighting and the slightly different angles can change the way the details appear on screen.

Tim

Type 1:

[Tim B]

Type 2:

[Tim B]

Type 3:

That's the largest I can get them here without going into close-ups.

Tim

[Tim B]

Hi Frank!

In regards to your post comments on the Type 2 comparisons, I completely agree. My Type 2 appears to be a lighter strike than the other two. I do have rivets on the bayonet, but mine are further apart than your example. The other areas you identified are also different.

Do we know if any of these medals are/were restrikes from original dies?

Tim

[Gldank]

Tim, look at the "4" in "1914" on your type II and type III. Also, look at the cannon wheel in your type II an type III. Could yours be two styles of a type II? Compare above with my type II and type III.

[Tim B]

Hi James,

I don't know on the Type 3 differences here; I just don't see what you're pointing out and think it might be due to different levels of wear or the lighting differences in the PICS. Here's an example of my Type 3 again; same medal, slightly different angles in the lighting.

IMO, the top leaf is the same, just mine (or the PIC) shows more details like the center vein.

If I'm missing something here, let me know!

Tim

Edited September 6, 2009 by Tim B

[Tim B]

Tim, look at the "4" in "1914" on your type II and type III. Also, look at the cannon wheel in your type II an type III. Could yours be two styles of a type II? Compare above with my type II and type III.

Hi,

No, take a look at the initial PICS I posted and you can see the difference in size (approximately 3 mm) between the size of the medal and also the size of the "picture". The Type 3 is smaller and narrower than either the Typs 1 or 2.

I added a comparison shot; check the red lines.

Tim

Edited September 6, 2009 by Tim B

[Gldank]

Hi,

No, take a look at the initial PICS I posted and you can see the difference in size (approximately 3 mm) between the size of the medal and also the size of the "picture". The Type 3 is smaller and narrower than either the Typs 1 or 2.

Tim

Then you may have the elusive type IV because the "4" style and the wheel size are part of the determining factors of the different types. Hmmmm, interesting.

[Tim B]

Type 4 ??? I wasn't aware there was a Type 4. Is this discussed anywhere?

Tim

[Gldank]

Type 4 ??? I wasn't aware there was a Type 4. Is this discussed anywhere?

Tim

No, just a rumor but yours is so different that maybe the rumor is true...

Nice!

[Tim B]

Umm, I don't know James; I just don't see the differences here other than wear, lighting, and perhaps just slightly different angles in the way the details are highlighted. IMO, your Type 3 is the same as mine other than I have a die flaw just left of the cannon., probably due to a dirty die.

Here's a front and reverse comparison of the two.

Tim

[Tim B]

Rev:

[Gldank]

I am sorry, I guess I meant the ones off Hendrik's site. His type II and III look the same.

[Tim B]

:lol: Confused already!? We just got started

Well, the PICS in post #21 are mine, but the two (Type 2 & 3) are different; just look at the size dimensions shown in the beginning of the thread.

Here's the "Type 3" from Hendrik's site ® compared to mine (L) and IMO, they are the same style.

Tim

[Tim B]

Well, let's try a new direction.

Looking at the Type (2), I have found at least three variants that have slightly different die characteristics and an easy distingushing feature is in the lettering on the reverse.

Again, the red marked areas apply:

(A) Note the block style type font for all the letters and how square the "S" are; almost appearing to resemble the numeral 5. I believe this style the most common (Type 2).

(B) Very similar to (A), but note the two letters (P & R) circled in "SUPREMA" and how the center letter stroke is angled. Interestingly, the front is near identical to (A).

© This is the one I recently picked up and note the letters are not block style and the "S" are rounded vice square. Similar design on the front as (A & B), but with noticable differences in the land details, helmet lines, and sun position. I also think the details are a bit weaker than the other two, but this may simply be attributed to these examples.

Any others out there???

Tim

[Gldank]

Yes I agree, different manufactures. What I was trying to point out earlier in our interesting thread before confusing myself was the difference in the number "4" in your picture B & C.

[Tim B]

:speechless: Hi James! Not hard to do for sure. You have to really bounce around to find good examples (PICS) to compare and then if you don't copy them to a central location you spend hours looking for that one example (Where did I see that?) that you think is the one you're looking for.

I'm just trying to see what everyone has and try to get the information in one location for future reference.

At this point, I see at least three Type 2, one Type 3, and though I haven't spent much time looking at it yet, I've only found one Type 1 thus far. I think Hendrik stated that the Type 1 had variances as well.

Something to do. At least it's cheaper than German WWII collecting

Tim