Belgium WW1 Fire Cross

[Gldank]

Yes! Quite right! Gave up collecting German along time ago. Although an interesting area, it is way too vast for my liking. And see, we are having so much fun with the Belgians!

[dcollect]

i do have the 3 types and 3 variations in my collection with a little information

http://www.dcollect.net/collection/belgium/WW1_AREA/The_Fire_Cross_1914-1918/the_fire_cross_1914-1918.html

thanks , dcollect

[RobW]

To all,

As a comparison here is another of my Belgian groups. To my untrained eye the Type 1 Fire Cross has some minor variations to that posted by both Tim B and Gldank.

Hope it is of use.

Regards,

Rob

Edited September 13, 2009 by RobW

[RobW]

And the reverses.

[RobW]

And the obligatory close-ups.

Regards,

Rob

[Tim B]

i do have the 3 types and 3 variations in my collection with a little information

http://www.dcollect.net/collection/belgium/WW1_AREA/The_Fire_Cross_1914-1918/the_fire_cross_1914-1918.html

thanks , dcollect

Hi dcollect!

That's a nice site and great work on the Fire Cross!

I think I see two new variations on the type two compared to the three examples I posted earlier.

Tim

[Tim B]

Hi Rob!

Nice to see you collect other stuff other than Victory Medals

In my opinion, your Type 1 is the same as mine, just slight differences in lighting and wear, but IMO, they are the same.

Tim

[RobW]

Hello Tim,

A bit of topic but; Yes I do collect other items but in the main as they relate to the vic series.

I have a number of small and medium sized groups, full and mini, all with vics. My main theme would be the vic series and I look at the associated medals as the vic was generally not awarded in isolation (except maybe in the case of the U.S. who awarded the vic in place of a service medal, and had battle and service clasps etc...).

I will be posting pics of a nice Cuban vic group later, same medal and theme.

Regards,

Rob

Edited September 13, 2009 by RobW

[Tim B]

dcollect,

Okay, so your type 2 variation 3 is different from the three examples I shown above, looking at the lettering and crown rays.

Can you post larger PICS of the Variation 4? Also, how sure are you that it is in fact a restrike? I very well may have this version but I would like to confirm it with better/larger PICS first. How common is the restrike?

Thank you!

Tim

[dcollect]

dcollect,

Okay, so your type 2 variation 3 is different from the three examples I shown above, looking at the lettering and crown rays.

Can you post larger PICS of the Variation 4? Also, how sure are you that it is in fact a restrike? I very well may have this version but I would like to confirm it with better/larger PICS first. How common is the restrike?

Thank you!

Tim

hello there ,

i followed the post for a while and i see on your pics you have the variation you are talking about as you can see on my site , i do not need to send the bigger pics , you have this one in your collection .

more info about the restrike and what made me think it is a restrike :

- this variation is a medal with a very new finish as you look at the color

- i have never seen this variation in a original grouping

- a lot of the medals on the ebay and other websites are from this type and specialy the last 8 years

- in belgium there is a collector who have 100 of them all together with some other restriked medals ( arab campaign , african ampaign WW2 , etc.... )

- most of the medals come without the iron pins to mount the ribbon on the uniform .

Now the good part for your medal , i call it a restrike and not a fake one ,

this is a restrike but by a correct original WW1 maker and with the same machine . it looks 99 procent at the WW1 ones , only with a very 1 procent error in the strike . these are striked again far after the war for people who had lost there medals and for the collections . every medal in belgium can be reproduced by medal makers . so do not worry this is not a fake one so do not throw it away please .

i have one in my collection and i like it because i collect the belgium medals by type and maker

thanks , dcollect

[Tim B]

dcollect,

Okay, thanks anyway. I did see what appeared to be these same die flaws and actually had emailed Hendrik when I first received the FC with the same questions/concerns. I have not heard from him on this, so the information you are providing is sort of what I was expecting, though not hoping for.

It would be very beneficial for larger PICS to be shown though, so collectors that utilize your site, or those looking for answers here could see the details better. Nothing like a nice clear PIC for a good learning tool.

Also, as this area of collecting seems so undiscovered to most, and we are discussing restrikes, do you have examples of other medals/orders that are current restrikes with the identifying die traits? This would be a huge benefit to collectors that do not want restrikes in their collections.

I don't know what Belgian seller your talking about that sells a lot of restrikes, but would like to know so I can avoid him if possible. PM me the name if you don't want to publically name him; if you don't mind. I have delt with several Belgian sellers now and most are good, but have had problems with three to date that either send me a completely different item than the one shown or described or not sent the item at all. Very tiring!

Thanks again Bjorn,

Tim

Oh BTW, your site looks much better than before. :cheers:

Edited September 14, 2009 by Tim B

[Tim B]

Well, perhaps some progress afterall.

First, here's the apparent Type 2 restrike (if we can call it that). One of the details that I was asking Hendrik about was the base metal. It appears this one is made out of copper and has a bronze finish applied. The PICS are not the greatest, but looking at the high points on the helmet and crown, you can see the copper color clearly.

So, it goes back and the seller has already refunded my money in full after presenting this new discovery. It's okay, for the price, I didn't like the wear anyway and I still got a nice Type 3 out of the deal!

Goes to show though what a little information can do.

Tim

Edited September 15, 2009 by Tim B

[Tim B]

Now, for some new information. I have seen three different Type 1 Fire Cross' at this point.

In the post below, the Type 1 in my collection is on the left and two more that I am being offered are center and right.

I was so concentrated on the little details, that I missed a big one on the FC I already have. Looking at the bottom front, you'll notice that it's missing the bottom bar entirely! If you look closely (red arrows), you can see where there might be a line about where the bar would have been stamped. At first, I thought either the die got worn or the stamp got offset somehow and didn't stamp the bar fully.

The front details are very close and the land details are too close to really differentiate between mine (1) and (2) without holding both in hand. However, (3) is different from both. Also, compare the spacing between the helmet crown and rim on all three and it appears the widths are slightly different.

Looking at the reverse will show additional differences which lead me to believe (1) is a completely different variation and not just a light or off-struck (2) piece.

Tim

[Tim B]

Now, for the reverse:

First, the crowns on (1 & 2) are the same, but (3) is a completely different style crown altogether.

Then, look at the leaf and all three are different from one another.

Last comment on the FC on the right (#3); notice the strange oily hue to the finish (red arrows). ***New Update*** The look is just a play of the lighting in the PIC.

Tim

Edited September 15, 2009 by Tim B

[Tim B]

Now, take a close look at Rob's FC on the medal bar. It looks very close to mine (#1) but not exact and yet, it's not quite exact to (#2) either. So is this a 4th variation or ???

Tim

Let's see some more!

[Tim B]

Well, lots of viewing, not much posting, but thats okay.

I am sending the restrike back tomorrow and wanted to post a few better PICs tonight so others have a good look at the areas Bjorn mentioned on his site.

Tim

Front: This has a replaced but correct ribbon as well.

[Tim B]

Notice how soft the details are compared to other period pieces; namely the helmet lines, bayonet details and land lines.

The red circle on the helmet shows the wear down to the copper base metal. This is evident on almost all the high points as you'll see on the reverse more plainly.

Tim

[Tim B]

Here's the reverse and I'll point out different die flaws, etc, on the next PIC.

Tim

[Tim B]

Again, the details are softer than period originals. Look at the designer signature.

Red areas show the copper coming through on the high points, including the lettering. Notice this piece appears rough on the leaves and the brass finish must be pretty thin.

Yellow areas show along the edges where you see evidence of file marks; perhaps where the flash was removed during the finishing stage. Quite poor workmanship and you would think this would have been done prior to the finish being applied.

Light Blue areas show the die flaws in the corners. I don't see these on any period originals that I've look at. Anybody else have these on theirs?

Tim

[Tim B]

Okay, I'm done for awhile on these. I started out on the Fire Cross as I figured I only had three to really get and maybe a couple of variations, but it appears there are at least 3 Type I; 3 or 4 Type II that I know of so far and luckily, only 1 Type III (some refer to this as a narrow Type II).

Still cheaper than German stuff!

Tim

OH! BTW... I showed a Type 2 version earlier with the slanted P & R in "SUPREMA". Has anyone ever seen this particular style mounted on a bar or in a collection that has 100% provenance? I am being asked. Thanks!

[Gldank]

Again, the details are softer than period originals. Look at the designer signature.

Red areas show the copper coming through on the high points, including the lettering. Notice this piece appears rough on the leaves and the brass finish must be pretty thin.

Yellow areas show along the edges where you see evidence of file marks; perhaps where the flash was removed during the finishing stage. Quite poor workmanship and you would think this would have been done prior to the finish being applied.

Light Blue areas show the die flaws in the corners. I don't see these on any period originals that I've look at. Anybody else have these on theirs?

Tim

I agree, a pretty sloppy re-strike. If you got it cheap, it may be a keeper just for collection comparison of what to watch out for. When I get a chance, I always like to do sample displays at my collector club and these restrikes can be a great teaching tool as it was for us here. I really enjoyed this string. Thanks Tim!

[Tim B]

Hi James!

Well, kind of nice to add something instead of just asking others questions all the time; glad someone is getting some use here. I should have a couple more in a week or so and can better compare once I have them in hand.

I figure we can use this thread more as a workshop and once those variations are identified and maybe properly labeled, we can run a better thread or have an database type area where they can be used for reference.

Tim

[RobW]

Hello Tim and all,

I have done some more research on my Type 1 and have found what I think are some minor differences compared to those items posted so far. These are my observations only and do not come from a position of experience, so I could be totally wrong or off the mark. I have outlined the areas in question with a red or blue marking.

The details are:

Obverse

* A slightly narrower bordered edge on the arms of the cross.

* A different spacing of the lines on the arms; mine seems to be imperceptibly closer than those previously illustrated.

* Slight differences in the bayonet handle and the gap between the bayonet lug and helmet.

* The position and detail of a rivet on the top spline of the helmet (this could be a trick of the light)

* Minor differences in the rolling clouds on the top.

Reverse

* A convex base on the crown.

* Minor detail differences on the leaves.

* A slightly larger signature and different placement against the stalk and bottom leaves.

Again this is all from an uninformed eye.

Hope it is of use.

Regards,

Rob

Edited September 16, 2009 by RobW

[Tim B]

Hi Rob,

I believe you're correct, yet another slight variation!

I just received two more today, one Type 1 and one Type 2. I'm still waiting on one more Type 2 and have two more coming in a couple of weeks (1 each) and all of the pieces are different from one another.

One of those coming is very similar to your's but with the differences you called out above.

Wow! How many variations are there, I wonder?

Tim

[RobW]

Hello Tim,

Excellent question as to how many varieties of the Fire Cross there are.

It is much like my continuous search of the different varieties of the official Belgian vic. All the references state there was but one official model but I have seen many different variations and differences in metal, strike, finish, and ball suspenders, to suggest that there were many different manufacturers all working to the same official model specs. Given the volume produced I suppose we should expect some variations !

We are probably looking at a similar situation here.

Regards,

Rob