Opinions on 5-Pc WWII Navy Medal Bar

[Tim B]

Hi guys,

I've seen different combinations of WWII bars before and this one looks good, but with 20 years of good conduct recognized, then shouldn't this bar have either the American Defense Service Medal or the National Defense Service Medal as well?

- American Defense Service medal: Active duty between September 8, 1939 and December 7, 1941.

- National Defense Service Medal: Created in 1953 for service during national emergencies and retroactive for the period of June 27, 1950 to July 27, 1954 for service during the Korean War.

Twenty years service would have crossed one of those two periods depending on whether the sailor was active prior to WWII. I can understand why there is no Korea Service Medal, as you cannot be awarded both the Navy Occupation Medal w/Asia clasp and the Korea Service Medal for the same timeframe.

So, if he started service in say, 1942; twenty years service would take him into the 1960's at least. Keep in mind, back then and up until the late 1990's, the Navy awarded good conduct medals at four year increments. So, the medal plus four stars = 20 years.

Opinions? Did he just not decide to mount the National Defense Medal? Would seem unlikely with approximately 10 years of service remaining after the medal would have been authorized.

Tim

[Tim B]

Here's one of my old bars that I've had for awhile. This one has the American Defense Service Medal w/Fleet bar and you can see where the 20 years are accounted for.

Tim

[Tim B]

Another observation;

You can see the second bar I posted has both silver and bronze stars on the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal (of which there were 48 official campaigns for the Navy/Marine Corps). The first bar in question may have a couple of stars hidden under the ribbon, but does not appear to have many stars overall and IMO, may indicate a later entry into service vice someone who had active duty prior to WWII.

Tim

[army historian]

Tim the Navy and Marine Corp regulations for mounting full sized medals is as follows:

No lover lap maxium of 3 medals per row.

Overlap maxium of 5 medals per row. A lot of people did not see fit to start a second row with one or two medals, because their old medal bar would have to be broken up and remounted. It cost about $15.00 a medal now. Here is a scan of a Retired Rear Admiral's medals mounted per regulations.

[army historian]

Here is a more recent medal bar to an enlisted man who was commissioned (Maverick). This is the Three no overlap type. Captain George Albert.

[Tim B]

Hi,

Yes, I am familiar with the Navy 1650 regulations. I'm a retired Master Chief with 23 years of service.

I disagree with your assessment though. With twenty years service, the man would have been at least an E-6, probably E-7 or above and would have been "required" to have his medals mounted for personnel inspections, etc. The cost of mounting medals does get expensive, however, as you move to more than one row (after five medals), then depending what you earn, you may not have to shift everything; trust me, I know.

Besides, most of these guys that stayed in, loved their fruit salad!

Tim

[army historian]

Hi,

Yes, I am familiar with the Navy 1650 regulations. I'm a retired Master Chief with 23 years of service.

I disagree with your assessment though. With twenty years service, the man would have been at least an E-6, probably E-7 or above and would have been "required" to have his medals mounted for personnel inspections, etc. The cost of mounting medals does get expensive, however, as you move to more than one row (after five medals), then depending what you earn, you may not have to shift everything; trust me, I know.

Besides, most of these guys that stayed in, loved their fruit salad!

Tim

OK Tim, But that still does not answer your question. The Navy Good Conduct was given for 3 years service during the War, I believe. I think you are right though, he should have the "Gee Dunk" medal as it was referred to in the Navy. Captain Albert

[Tim B]

The Navy issued their Good Conduct (GC) Medals on a 4-year basis up until 1997 when the award structure changed to coinside with the other branches.

Interesting to see the setup in post #5; only one bronze star on the GC. Must have had some recurring discipline problems. Also, with so many stars on the Navy Achievement Medal, I am guessing he must have been someone that wasn't "politically correct" as they could have given the guy another Commendation in place of at least one of those I bet. All comes down to who you know and what they want to do for you; never changes.

Also, if you look over the various service's awards manuals, you'll see that the award critieria of the Navy/Marine Corps Commendation Medal is different and more demanding than that of the Army or Air Force. That's why you don't see many in enlisted ranks (other than RM', CT's, etc.) and virtually never below the rank of E-6. This has always been a sore spot for enlisted guys in Navy/Marine Corps.

Tim

Oh, another person that was never "politically correct", nor did I want to be.

[army historian]

Tim, nice rack! I don't want to get into a pissing match with you, but you are wrong about the Navy Good Conduct Medal. During WW2 it was awarded for 3 years service. I have my uncle's medals and paper work, he went into the Navy in 1943, was awarded a Good Conduct in 1946! Here is a copy the separation form of a Sailor who went into the Navy in 1942, was discharged in 1945 with 3 years, 0 months and 11 days. He was awarded the Navy Good Conduct Medal. I have other examples. Respectfully Captain George Albert.

Edited December 8, 2009 by army historian

[Tim B]

George,

No pissing contest, but here are the facts:

A sailor (no officers) in the Navy received a new Good Conduct Medal for each honorable enlistment completed. During times of war, the Good Conduct Medal may be awarded for one year of faithful service. The Good Conduct Medal may also be awarded posthumously, to any soldier killed in the line of duty.

Of all the Good Conduct Medals, the Navy Good Conduct Medal is the oldest, dating back to 1869. There have been a total of four versions of the Navy Good Conduct Medal. The current version dates from 1961 and is issued to every active duty sailor who completes three years of honorable and faithful service. Prior to 1 January 1996 (I got my last one in 1997, so mixed that up), four years of honorable and faithful service was required.

Don't take my word for it, look it up.

R,

Tim

[W McSwiggan]

I'll go a little off topic here but for the benefit of our readers, the Army GCM can also be awarded with less than the requisit time upon completion of enlisted service if other requirements are met - hence prior service cadets cease to be enlisted upon entry into West Point and are awarded the GCM regardless of time in service.

Georg

Edited December 8, 2009 by W McSwiggan

[Paul R]

I remember reading about the GCM being awarded for four years of good service as well. From what I remember, it was given to reward continuous good conduct and a re-enlistment incentive.

Tim, I agree with you regarding the award criteria for Naval and Coast Guard personal awards. The standard is definitely higher than with the other branches. I made Health Services Tech. of the year for the entire branch of service and received a CG Achievement Medal at the end of that tour. I remember seeing Master Chiefs retiring with one Achievement medal for their entire 30+ year stint of service.

While attending a school, I met up with an Air Force Master Sergeant(my rank equivalent). After noticing that he and about a dozen others with him had this medal, I asked him about what they had to do to get this prestigious award. He told me that in the Air Force something was wrong if an E7 did not have at least one Meritorious Service Medal! In the Coast Guard, someone does not typically receive that medal unless they are an 06(Captain)leaving a Commanding Officer billet, after a tour of honorable service. It is amazing how much the criteria can vary for the same medal between branches of service.

[Tim B]

Hi Paul,

Yes, and unfortunately it will never change. It all comes down to "who" is in charge and what their philosphy is on awards. That mentality filters down the chain of command and comes down to more politics than anything else. Shame really, but as much as I tried to change it at my level, one person can only do so much; it has to be a fundamental change in award policy for things to actually change at a command level. Even then, it all comes down to your superiors and IF they want to reward/recognize an individual.

For an E-9 in the Navy, typically, the MSM would only be given at retirement if functioning "full time" as a Command Master Chief during that last tour, and then only if the C.O. felt you were doing a good job. On the other hand, I've seen lower ranking personnel get these in other jobs where they interact with 0-6 and above on a daily basis (I/e: Communication stations, Intel related or joint service type positions). It's not right, but it is what it is.

When I was in the Gulf during Desert Storm, the CO(0-6) made a comment to his officers that "no enlisted man was to be recommended for a combat "V" on any award. We watched several, including lower ranking, officers, get a "V" on their Commendation and Achivement Medals and these clowns sat three feet away from everyone else. Just a case in point.

Oh well, doesn't buy a cup of coffee at this point!

Cheers Paul and Happy Holidays my friend!

Tim

[Paul R]

I do hear you Tim. I guess that I am just a bit let down... There is nothing like being put in for a Comm on three occasions, just for it to be down graded for stupid reasons(once because of my rank being too low, another because they were wanting to cut down on the number of medals being awarded-of course they were alloted to officers, and another because my supervisor did not have one yet), while transferring to different units and seeing incompetant douche-bags with multiple awardings of them, for simply having a pulse. Of course I hear, "at least you know that you earned yours."

Medals may not be able to buy us a cup of coffee, but the points they represent can make or break a person for advancement.

Master Chief, I wish to you and your family a most happy and prosperous New Year!! :D

[Tim B]

:D

Well, let it go Paul or it will eat you if you let it and we're better than that!

Nothing we can do about it now. If you only knew how many times I had old Department Heads approach me after they transferred and said something stupid like "Chief, I never realized how lucky I was to have a Chief like you..." and while they "had" me, never did a danm thing for me. It's all hollow words to me at that point and they can KMA!

I figure over the course of my career, I lost out on two more Commendation and three Achievement Medals, lost to the same situations you experienced, plus losing the MSM on my last tour as my female department head who never had any experience other than MEPS close to her home, didn't like CPO's and especially disliked MCPO's. After I retired, the new CO came in and fired her and "recommended" she retire.

Worst loss was when a CO wanted to put me up for a Navy/Marine Corps Medal for heroism after receiving a letter from a Canadian CEO and Reserve Naval Officer (via the US attache) after saving him on a bad dive. The Personnel Officer (LTJG/0-2) was pissed at me for not sharing Family Advocacy details on a couple of cases I was working at the time. I was carrying both DAPA & FAR in addition to my regular Ordnance related duties at the time and heavily involved in base consolidation of two commands as we downsized. I reminded her the cases were always stamped CO/XO eyes only and I guess her little ego couldn't handle the idea that she didn't need to know. I always watched her sitting around with the personnel office E-3/4 in the morning getting the local gossip and said I could never trust her to keep her mouth shut. Anyway, she convinced the CO that the action didn't warrant anything higher than a Navy Achievement Medal!!

Acheivement Medals are strictly an administrative type award and any acts of life-saving are, at most, downgraded to nothing lower than Navy Commendation levels for "minor acts". So...been down that dark road more than once.

Keep in mind, the military never owes you for doing your job and you can't let that mindset get into you or you're in trouble. Easy to do. Remember in the Blue Max, the squadron adjutant to Stockel after they couldn't verify his first aerial kill.."then you have the satisfaction knowing you have served the fatherland..." Nothing can take away who you were or the accomplishments you made Paul and know that your honorable and faithful service is appreciated by many that you may never know.

All the best Chief (for some reason, I thought you had the star!) Again, may you and your family have a happy holiday and better 2010!! Heaven knows, I need a better year.

Tim

Edited December 28, 2009 by Tim B

[Paul R]

No star yet! One day though! You are right. All the job owes me is my paycheck on the first and the 15th. I am actually very happy with my service and occupation. I actually dread retirement, as being in the military was something I have always wanted to do from as far back as I can remember.

We all know that life would not be worth living if there was nothing to complain about!

Have a frosty beverage for me!