Hi! Info needeed on Colonel Ishmael Pack

[CSW]

Hi i am new to the group.About 2 years ago i brought a US group of Colonel Ishmeael pack who i think was with the 101ST Airbourne.If any one can help i would like any info on him.It was the first group i bought from the US as i am in the UK. The medals i have are named and are the silver star with oak leaf culster.The legion of merit with two oak leaf culsters.The distinguished flying cross a Bronze star with "v" and four oak leaf culsters an air medal with 11 oak clusters a defense commendation medal and an aemy commendatiion medal with a "v" and four oak leaf culsters.When i get time i will photo the medals.

I dont know anything aboit him apart from he was in Viatnam and was awarded the purple heart which i do not have.Any info would be good as i would like to put a person to the medals.

Thanks in advance

Chris

[Guest Rick Research]

What kind of nutters name a helpless baby "Ishmael?" That's child abuse!!!

NOT a graduate of West Point. There was an Ishmael Pack born 10 October 1927, Social Security number 407-22-8798 issued in Kentucky, who died in Hampton, Virginia at zip code 23666 on 24 October 2002.

Would seem the most likely match to your fellow, if able to google search up some sort of obituary.

There was another (!!!) slightly older (but probably not old enough to be his father-- a tragically monickered cousin perhaps?) namesake ALSO from Kentucky (hmmmm) but would seem less likely to have been the age for Vietnam military service.

[CSW]

Hi Rick ,

Thanks for your help.I did find an Obituary .Hi died at the age of 75 in 2002.He was a native of Ashland Kentucky and he had been living in hampton since 1975.Colonel pack had been a career officer in the 11th airbourne division, the 187th regiment conbat team (not sure what this is ) and the 101st airbourne division between 1952-58.From 1952-58 he attended service school and taught ROTC at the University of California.

He served two terms in vietnam the first tour as an adivisor and the last as a battalion commander of the 9th infantry division.when he came back he was assigned to the infantry school at fort benning.He attended the army war collage in 1971 then he was assigned to fort monroe.Then in 1973 he was assigned to troop command on okinawa.1n 1975 in returned to the armed forces staff collage in norfolf virginia.He retired in 1975.

Some other info i found was from nov 1968-may 1969 LTC Ishmal Pack was the 3/47 Riverine Infantry Battalion Commander in Vietnam. also in jan-feb 1969 LTC Ishmael Pach was Acting CO of the 4.47 Riverine infantry Battalion Commanders.

This is now all the info i have.I will post photos of the medals in the next day or so.

cheers

Chris

[CSW]

Just found some more info.His service start was from oct 10th 1945. He was in the end of World War Two,Korea and Vietnam.Has buried at Arlington National Cemetery on the 26th Nov 2002.He was born on the 10th of oct 1927 in Boyd County Kentucky.He died on the 24 Oct 2002.

Chris

[Guest Rick Research]

Glad to have been of help finding him. It always helps to have a really (really) strange name!

From Stanton's "Vietnam Order of Battle"--

9th Infantry Division arrived in RVN 16 December 1966 and departed 27 August 1969.

Per Stanton, the Riverine Battalions "...for the first time since the American Civil War... the U.S. Army was utilizing an amphibious force operating entirely afloat. The force was a complete package, independent of fixed support bases and with all of its normal fire support embarked or in tow. The troops lived on barracks ships docked at the mobile riverine base anchorage. On tactical operations Navy armored troop carrier boats ('monitors'), transported the soldiers along the vats network of waterways in the Delta.

The first element of the mobile Riverine Force (2nd Brigade) arrived in Vietnam in January 1967 and after shakedown training in the Rung Sat swamps, moved to its base near My Tho, which was named Dong Tam--a base on a 600-acre island created along inundated rice paddies by dredging earth from the bottom of the Mekong River.

The mobile riverine force often operated with other specialized units such as Navy SEAL teams, South Vietnamese Marines, units of the ARVN 7th Division and River Assault Groups on reconnaissance, blocking and pursuit operaations."

Regarding the specific battalions you've turned up, Stanton has:

3/47th Riverine Infantry Arrived RVN 30 January 1967 and departed 18 July 1969. Authorized strength: 814.

December 1968 to January 1969: under 2nd Brigade, 9th Infantry Division at Dong Tam and Truc Giang

February to April 1969 ditto at Dong Tam

MayJune 1969 ditto at Truc Giang.

4/47th also authorized strength 814.

January-February 1969 same, at Dong Tam and Truc Giang.

Seems to me you've found one of the most "interesting" SMALL American infantry units to have served in Vietnam-- and if there is some way to find the Colinel's citations for his awards, will be quite a story. :beer:

[CSW]

Thanks again for your help rick .Do you know what the 187th reg. combat team is ?? I should know this but i dont .This is turning out to be a very intersting group.

Thanks again

Chris

[W McSwiggan]

Perhaps I can help.

The 187th Regimental Combat Team (Rakkasans) was an organization built around the 187th Parachute Infantry Regiment. The regiment was augmented with artillery, air defense artillery, engineers, quartermaster, maintenance and medical units to allow independent operation and deployment. They were stationed in Japan under the command of then Brigadier General William Westmoreland during the Korean Conflict. The team was deployed to participate in the Inchon landings and later made several successful airborne assaults in Korea.

The regimental combat team concept bridged the tactical organization concepts from regiments & combat commands to modern brigades of combined arms teams.

Oswald

Edited October 19, 2009 by W McSwiggan

[Guest Rick Research]

Thanks Fred (we're sick puppies-- don't mind the schtick )

INCHON!!!!! And NOW the aerial decorations are explained---

paratroops.... riverine assault...

ISHMAEL PACK WAS THE REAL JOHN WAYNE !

This gets better and better. :jumping:

[CSW]

here are the photos of the group.These are the main medals of the group.

[CSW]

Here is the nameing on the silver star.

[CSW]

All medals are in the photo are named to Ismael Pack aprt from the Defense Commendation Medal and the Army Commendation Medal.In my first posting on this i noted the devices he won and the Obituary confims this.Again looking at the medals they do not have his full entightelment of devices on them should i add them to the medals or just leave them.I have also just confirmed his Vietnam commands by way of a website page www.gingerb.com/uss_benewah.htm.I have found a photo of the man himself which i will add.I still think there is so much to find out.I also have a number of his campaign service medals which i did not add the the photo.The only medal i do not have is his Purple Heart.

When i was looking though his obituary again it said he taught ROTC.I should know what that means but i dont could some one tell me.

Chris

[W McSwiggan]

ROTC = Reserve Officer Training Corps. That is a path to commissioning normally leading to a reserve commission. The program is conducted at civilian institutions (colleges/universities) and is concurrent with the normal program of studies. It also includes summer training. Each college has a faculty of active duty officers responsible for the military instruction of the cadets in the program. The senior officer - normally a Lieutenant Colonel is the Professor of Military Science (PMS).

Erwin

Edited October 20, 2009 by W McSwiggan

[CSW]

Erwin,

Thankyou for your help.

Chris

[Guest Rick Research]

Glad you could find a photo-- have been wondering what he looked like. He'd have had to have been tough with a name like that (has Johnny Cash's "Boy Named Sue" beat, hands down)--

Ishmael, Genesis 16:12 "And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him."

Leave everything as it was when he had them. If he didn't add devices, must never have worn his full medals. Keep them in the cases as he did.

I'm assuming he must have been commissioned from the ranks, since he enlisted on his 18th birthday in October 1945. That doesn't suggest a college ROTC enrollment.

My cousin with an ROTC commission went "regular" and ended up as a Colonel in the General Staff. I always thought HIS career was odd (I believe he was probably the record holding oldest reserve 2nd Lt when he decided active duty in Vietnam was better than teaching high school English) but Colonel Pack

has anybody I've ever heard of beat for wild career changes.

[CSW]

Hi Everyone,

A mate of mine who is into Vietnam home made films and photos has about 15 mins of footage taken by a member of the 3/47th the Riverine inf so he is sending me a DVD of it and it shows some of the commanders i hope the Col is there.I have also found a very small bit of info that he won his purple heart in Vietnam on an S and D mission.

With the group of medals there was a Purple Heart, but this was not named ?? Were all Purple Hearts of this period named? The ones I have had they were all named.

Could this be his or were the originals all named?

Also does anyone the battle order and commanders of the 187th reg combat team in Korea??

Thanks

Chris

[FrontlineAntiques]

Hi Everyone,

A mate of mine who is into Vietnam home made films and photos has about 15 mins of footage taken by a member of the 3/47th the Riverine inf so he is sending me a DVD of it and it shows some of the commanders i hope the Col is there.I have also found a very small bit of info that he won his purple heart in Vietnam on an S and D mission.

With the group of medals there was a Purple Heart but this was not named ?? Were all Purple Hearts of this period named the ones I have had they were all named.Could this be his or were the originals all named?

Also does anyone the battle order and commanders of the 187th reg combat team in Korea??

Thanks

Chris

Great group Chris, and a wonderful story too.

Im just about to purchase my first US group, hope they prove to be as interesting!

Dan

[Ulsterman]

I thought almost all Vietnam era Purple Hearts (except KIAs) were originally unnamed.

My cousin got one unnamed in the hospital.

[W McSwiggan]

None of my stuff was named but then - I didn't get a Purple Heart... (DFC, BSM & Lotsa Air Medals).

I think naming was done at personal whim & expense during that time or... you were dead and they might have engraved the next of kin presentation set.

[CSW]

None of my stuff was named but then - I didn't get a Purple Heart... (DFC, BSM & Lotsa Air Medals).

I think naming was done at personal whim & expense during that time or... you were dead and they might have engraved the next of kin presentation set.

Hi,

Thankyou all for your help.I am happy now i know purple hearts were mot named to the wounded.I now think i have the Col. full group .

Could any one tell me how i would go about finding out about his Citations for his medals.

thanks again

Chris

[W McSwiggan]

I do not have published references for the Korean War Order of Battle but I have found what appears to be a good one on the web. Good enough that is perfectly replicated in the Wikipedia...

Some one is cheating but who???

At any rate the information on this web-site looks very reliable to my eye. At the web-site home page you can see that they have all sorts of good stuff - take a look.

http://www.korean-war.com/187airborne.html

Jake

Also does anyone the battle order and commanders of the 187th reg combat team in Korea??

Thanks

Chris

[CSW]

Hi Jake,

Thanks a lot .This is a great help.I have had a quick look and it is going to be very helpful to me.

Thanks

Chris