SCINDE HORSE - WW2

[Mervyn Mitton]

Tony recently posted a small WW1 group - straightforward in itself - but with the incredible research and background information it quickly became of great interest.

This is a similar group - standard five medals - showing service in Africa and Italy - but the unit and the information that came with it makes it - in my view - of great value to the collector. With the input from members it may also help to resolve a question that has been puzzling me since I got the group.

Captain Maurice Lionel GILBERT was attached to the famous Indian unit - The Scinde Light Horse. They were originally formed in the 1840's and two regiments fought in the various campaigns of the Punjab. This was with the Hon. East India Company. After the Mutiny they were reformed as the 14th Lancers, but always retained the original name as well. Gilbert - at this point , must have been sent direct to the Middle East as he has no India GSM - or, Burma Star. Some of the refs. to him in later newsletters, indicate that he served in Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon. Also, the photos show that he was in Persia. These areas were of great importance because of their oil.

The question that has been puzzling me , is that we have no Star to indicate service in these areas ? The Africa Star was really for the battles of North Africa and there is nothing else - and yet we had considerable numbers of men fighting in the Middle East for most of the War ? He probably went back to India at the end of the campaign - but probably too late for medals qualification. His family think he ended-up as a Lt. Col., but there is no evidence of this. Most of the photos are dated 1942 or, 1943.

This photo shows him as a Lieutenant. Since they had become an armoured unit, his insignia are for the Tank Corps.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Mervyn Mitton

[Mervyn Mitton]

Standard British group of five - unnamed as issued - for Captain Maurice Lionel GILBERT

[Mervyn Mitton]

An entry in the newsletter of the Scinde Light Horse association.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Brig. Aslam Khan was a captain with Gilbert and they were great friends. The original Scinde Horse had been the 14th lancers - from the letterhead you will see that they have become the 13 th. Lancers and are now a Pakistani Army unit.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Brigadier Aslam Khan - when he was a Captain and a friend of Captain Gilbert. Note the tanks in the background - are they Churchills ?

[Mervyn Mitton]

Caption on back reads : Ahmadnaja. Feb. 1942. Outside bungalow.

[Mervyn Mitton]

This is probably the most historic of the photographs - the boy in the middle is the King of Iraq and behind him is the Regent of Iraq. Capt. Gilbert is on the left of the King. The next photo will show the inscription on the reverse. I posted this photo on the Iraq site as I thought it would interest them - Paul told me the boy was assassinated in the 1950's. I will also show a close-up of just the central figures.

The photo was taken in the ROWANDIZ GORGE in Northern Persia (now of course IRAN) in June 1943

[Mervyn Mitton]

[Mervyn Mitton]

[coldstream]

Mervyn

Looking at the afv's in the background of post 5 I would say IMHO that that these tanks are 'General Grants' as the British called them or 'Generals Lees' in American service.

I base this on the sheer height of them and the distinctive shine on the armour. A quick check on Goggle images will show you what I mean.

All the best Simon

[nwfrontier]

Mervyn,

Very nice grouping the medals, photographs and paperwork. I am envious.

I am lucky to own the Scinde Horse history which covers WW2 and from digging into that plus the London Gazette and a few other things off my shelf here is what I have put together:

Maurice Lionel Gilbert

Emergency commissioned from cadet 1^st February 1941 into the Royal Tank Regiment (officer number (174025)) (Its slightly later then expected LG 8/8/1941). He was an RTR officer and so wears RTR badges in the photograph.

British service attached to Scinde Horse July 1941

Left for Training Centre April 1942

Rejoined the regiment July 1942

The regiment was mechanised in 1938 and on the North West Frontier as part of Bannu brigade (but split up by troop) from before the war until October 1941. They then moved Risalpur and in November to Karachi. In April 1942 they then went to Persia.

They were issued Grant Tanks in Basra in November 1942 but were re-equipped with Sherman's in November/December 1943

Batches of officers were sent to the C. M. T. C. (I do not know what stands for a tank school of some sort) in Italy in 1944 and although officially forbidden most of them managed to get attachments to active units I suspect this is how he earned his Italy Star as the regiment as a whole did not go.

He was a War Substantive Lieutenant by July 1943

He was a War Substantive Captain by April 1945

Went on release September 1945

He was apparently a Major when the left the regiment but I have not seen a gazette for that perhaps an temporary, acting or local rank?

The regiment returned to India in January 1946

Appointed from Lt (W.S. Captain) R.T.R. Emergency commission to the Regular Army Reserve of Officers for the Royal Armoured Corps as a Captain 8^th August 1951 and granted the honorary rank of Major. (LG 7/8/51). He relinquished his commission due to reaching the age limit and retained the honorary rank of Major 19^th February 1962. I believe the age limit was 45 for Captains & Majors.

The qualifying areas for the Africa Star include:-

(i)

North Africa (troops under Allied Force Headquarters, and Middle East Command Excluding formations not West of the Suez Canal and Red Sea)

From 10.6.40 to 12.5.43

The Africa Star's minimum qualifying period was one day. The regiment sent men on courses on Grant's to Cairo from July onwards maybe this is how he earned his.

Full (pre-1947) title of the regiment is "The Scinde Horse (14^th Prince of Wales Own Cavaly). At partition in 1947 the regiment was allotted to India

The then Captain M. Aslam Khan, who was comissioned in the Indian Army in August 1942, joined the regiment in September 1942 had left the regiment in July 1945 on posting to Babina, the Indian Armoured Corps training centre. As a Muslim he opted to join the newly formed Pakistan Army at Partition and after retiring a Brigadier was chosen to be come Colonel of the 13^th Lancers.

The 13^th Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers (as they were in 1947) were allotted to Pakistan at Partition. After Pakistan became a republic in 1956 they would have dropped the Duke of Connaught's Own part of the title.

Can I ask a small price for all this? Could you scan all the association newsletters you have and email them to me? I would really appreciate it and perhaps using them I can help others in the future.

Thanks

Matthew

Edited January 26, 2010 by nwfrontier

[Michael Johnson]

Iraq and Persia qualified for the 1939-45 Star within the following dates:

Middle East

Iraq 10.4.41 31.5.41

Madagascar (with Comoro Islands) 5.5.42 5.11.42

Persia 25.8.41 28.8.41

Syria 8.6.41 11.7.41

(from the 1939-45 Star Regulations at http://medals.nzdf.mil.nz/warrants/h9-reg.html)

After these dates six months' service qualified for the Defence Medal.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Mathew - welcome to GMIC. I had never expected to see this post resurrected from the past - but glad that you took the trouble as I thought the picture of the young King interesting.

Your research is great and adds a lot to our knowledge of the area and period. Similarly, Michael's explanation of the requirements for the medals makes things clear.

I will try to find the paperwork that came with the medals - must check first that we haven't sold them. Would you be interested in the group ?

Once again thankyou both - things seem to disappear down the pages very quickly these days with so many new members - and it is nice to re-visit occasionally. Mervyn

[nwfrontier]

Mathew - welcome to GMIC. I had never expected to see this post resurrected from the past - but glad that you took the trouble as I thought the picture of the young King interesting.

Your research is great and adds a lot to our knowledge of the area and period. Similarly, Michael's explanation of the requirements for the medals makes things clear.

I will try to find the paperwork that came with the medals - must check first that we haven't sold them. Would you be interested in the group ?

Once again thankyou both - things seem to disappear down the pages very quickly these days with so many new members - and it is nice to re-visit occasionally. Mervyn

Mervyn,

Thank you for the welcome. My interest lies with the Indian Army of the period and yes this collection of medals and paperwork could be of interest to me as although not an Indian Army officer per se, he was attached to an Indian Army unit that interests me, even if they did not serve in any active theatres. Please email me and let me know either way.

I have been a member for some time but only an occasional visitor here though I am on other forums.

I have only recently started trying to understand the qualification rules for WW2 medals and I have a lot to learn.

Regards,

Matthew