Can you help? - Col. Pat Brennan, Aviator, NSC

[FrontlineAntiques]

Hi Chaps

I have just ventured into the world of US medals with my first purchase

I Have bought a Vietnam era group to Colonel Pat Brennan, an airforce aviator. My other halfs surname is Brennan, and i bought this for the family link to her name .

The only info i have on him so far is the group itself -

Pat Brennan - full name John P Brennan (presumably the P is for Patrick)

Colonel

NSC (National Security Council??)

Tags state -

John P Brennan

04005650

T-52-53 B. (blood type?)

Roman Catholic

His medals are -

1. Silver Star

2. Air Medal

3. Army Commendation Medal – 3 citations?

4. National Defense Service Medal

5. Vietnam Service Medal -3 tours?

6. Vietnam Campaign Medal + 1960 bar

He also has -

Flight suit name tag with Senior Aviator Badge and Master parachutist badge, Pat Brennan COL NSC

Plastic name tag for dress uniform with last name Brennan

Two full size colonel rank eagles

Master Parachutist badge

Senior aviator badge

If any one can help i would like any info on him. Im based in the UK and this is the first US group i have purchased.

I dont know anything about him apart from he was in Vietnam.

I dont have the group in hand at the minute, but as soon as i do i will post better photos

Any info would be good as i would like to put a person/story to the group. Thanks

Dan

[Doc]

Nice Group. First, though, he is an ARMY aviator, not Air Force. I suspect the "NSC" should be "MSC"-- that would be Medical Service Corps, which would certainly be possible, since they fly most of our helicopter ambulances. For more information on him, Try contacting the Army Medical Regiment at the Army Medical Department Center and School, Ft. Sam Houston, Texas. They may be able to give you more information on him. Their URL is: http://ameddregiment.amedd.army.mil/

Doc

Edited October 27, 2009 by Doc

[W McSwiggan]

From the Top -

Errors noted - both leather flight suit name plate and insignia indicate Seniot ARMY Aviator as noted and the highest award shown is the Distinguished Flying Cross not the Silver Star. Three stars on campaign ribbon do not necessarily imply three tours - could but could be just one - stars were based on service in theater during the dates of campaigns - one tour during a very busy time could generate 3 (June 67 to June 68 would net 3 stars and 1 January 68 to 1 January 69 would get 5 for example).

NSC - I suspect the good Colonel was using license to do as he pleased on this tag. Nurse Corps was not abbreviated NSC, highly unlikely he would have screwed up the spelling when ordering the tag. Usually branch was placed in this position however - often - my own in case - US Army was used as the flight suits were the same for the Air Force and Navy as well as Army. There were two agencies Network Service Center (electronic) and Natick Soldier Center often referred to as the Natick Labs that would use this abbreviation - I think Natick is most likely due to age and rank of COL B.

How did a senior officer spend significant time in Vietnam as an Aviator, win a DFC but no Bronze Star and only one Air Medal??? Strange unless this was a case of an old - out of date rack that the Colonel simply discarded and built a new one from scratch. Given what I see - that is my suspicion and thie rack is one he wore early in a second tour in country. I think there is reason to doubt that he was a colonel at the time he actually wore this bar.

I am speculating and could easily be wrong but that is my reasoned assessment of what you have shown.

[FrontlineAntiques]

Nice Group. First, though, he is an ARMY aviator, not Air Force. I suspect the "NSC" should be "MSC"-- that would be Medical Service Corps, which would certainly be possible, since they fly most of our helicopter ambulances. For more information on him, Try contacting the Army Medical Regiment at the Army Medical Department Center and School, Ft. Sam Houston, Texas. They may be able to give you more information on him. Their URL is: http://ameddregiment.amedd.army.mil/

Doc

Hey Doc

Thanks for the superfast reply!

What gives t away as army as opposed to airforce? is it an insignia or the lay out? I am a total novice to US militaria so you will have to bear with me.

Thanks

Dan

[FrontlineAntiques]

From the Top -

both leather flight suit name plate and insignia indicate Senior ARMY Aviator as noted and the highest award shown is the Distinguished Flying Cross

Given what I see - that is my suspicion and this rack is one he wore early in a second tour in country. I think there is reason to doubt that he was a colonel at the time he actually wore this bar.

Thanks for the detailed response! you guys are all very fast and definately know your stuff!

Thankyou for putting me on the right track with the flightsuit name plate and DFC.

I think that you are correct that JP Brennan wouldnt have had the rank of Colonel at the time he was wearing this bar.

Out of interest, what is the qualification for the US DFC? Is it similar to the UK medal?

Thanks again, Dan

[Doc]

That is an ARMY Senior Aviator Badge. Air Force Pilot Wings are very different. Also, Unlikely but possible for him to be AF but have Army Commendation medals in multiple awards (we saw that a lot in the immediate post WW2 era, but rare today-- especially since he made it to Colonel. Generally, an Army guy transferring to the AF for the rest of his career wouldn't make it to that rank.... obviously, there can be exceptions, but generally that is true.) Doc

[FrontlineAntiques]

John P Brennan

04005650

T-52-53 B. (blood type?)

Roman Catholic

Does anyone have any idea what the numbers on his tags relate to?

04005650

T-52-53 B.

Im guessing that B is his blood type.

[Doc]

Does anyone have any idea what the numbers on his tags relate to?

04005650

T-52-53 B.

Im guessing that B is his blood type.

I would bet that the 04005650 was his serial number. By the time I was in, this format was no longer used, but it is typical of the WW2 and Korean War serial numbers. I'm not sure when the Army went over to using the Social Security Number, but it was before 1971, so if this is his serial number, it would be from before that date, so he could have used this tag during early VN era. I have no idea about the T-52-53. B might be blood type, but I would have expected B+ or B- for blood type. Again, it may differ depending on years.

DFC criteria-- from the relevant Army Regulation:

3–12. Distinguished Flying Cross

a. The Distinguished Flying Cross, section 3749, title 10, United States Code (10 USC 3749), was established by

Act of Congress 2 July 1926.

b. The Distinguished Flying Cross is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity with the Army of

the United States, distinguished himself or herself by heroism or extraordinary achievement while participating in aerial

flight. The performance of the act of heroism must be evidenced by voluntary action above and beyond the call of

duty. The extraordinary achievement must have resulted in an accomplishment so exceptional and outstanding as to

clearly set the individual apart from his or her comrades or from other persons in similar circumstances. Awards will

be made only to recognize single acts of heroism or extraordinary achievement and will not be made in recognition of

sustained operational activities against an armed enemy.

As far as when he earned this stuff, It's hard to tell. Dan's analysis is pretty good, but I bet he had only a single VN tour. And that may not have been as an operational pilot-- he may have been in his other role (MSC?). I don't know any VN pilots who didn't get a bunch of air medals.

Doc

Edited October 27, 2009 by Doc

[FrontlineAntiques]

DFC criteria-- from the relevant Army Regulation:

312. Distinguished Flying Cross

a. The Distinguished Flying Cross, section 3749, title 10, United States Code (10 USC 3749), was established by

Act of Congress 2 July 1926.

b. The Distinguished Flying Cross is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity with the Army of

the United States, distinguished himself or herself by heroism or extraordinary achievement while participating in aerial flight. The performance of the act of heroism must be evidenced by voluntary action above and beyond the call of duty. The extraordinary achievement must have resulted in an accomplishment so exceptional and outstanding as to clearly set the individual apart from his or her comrades or from other persons in similar circumstances. Awards will be made only to recognize single acts of heroism or extraordinary achievement and will not be made in recognition of sustained operational activities against an armed enemy.

Similar to the UK criteria then - "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying in active operations against the enemy". Short but sweet! :whistle:

Edited October 27, 2009 by FrontlineAntiques

[Doc]

OK, after checking a few things, I think that is a Dog Tag from early in his career.

The first line of numbers was his Officer Serial Number, which was replaced by the Social Security number in 1968.

Officer Serial numbers were prefixed with OF (as versus O) beginning in 1964.

The T-52-53 is the years he received his tetanus toxoid shots. This was no longer supposed to be on the dog tags after 1959.

The "Notch" in the tag was dropped in 1967.

B without a + or - was the appropriate blood type marking during the late 50s to early 60s.

So, based on this, and realising that changes didn't always happen per the regulations, and old styles etc often went on for years, I would guess that this is a dog tag from 1959 to the early 1960s, probably prior to 1964.

Doc

Edited October 27, 2009 by Doc

[FrontlineAntiques]

OK, after checking a few things, I think that is a Dog Tag from early in his career.

The first line of numbers was his Officer Serial Number, which was replaced by the Social Security number in 1968.

Officer Serial numbers were prefixed with OF (as versus O) beginning in 1964.

The T-52-53 is the years he received his tetanus toxoid shots. This was no longer supposed to be on the dog tags after 1959.

The "Notch" in the tag was dropped in 1967.

B without a + or - was the appropriate blood type marking during the late 50s to early 60s.

So, based on this, and realising that changes didn't always happen per the regulations, and old styles etc often went on for years, I would guess that this is a dog tag from 1959 to the early 1960s, probably prior to 1964.

Doc

Doc, where hve you been all my life! Thats amazing! Thanks for your help.

I have emailed the MSC so hopefully we should get somewhere with service records...

Thanks

[Doc]

Doc, where hve you been all my life! Thats amazing! Thanks for your help.

I have emailed the MSC so hopefully we should get somewhere with service records...

Thanks

You are welcome, and good luck. Doc

[FrontlineAntiques]

So, with a lightening fast response from the US Army Medical Regiment, I am unfortunately no further on.

They were unable to help me as other than awards, they have very little in the way of individual records.

Next stop the US National Archive. Any hints or tips?

[Doc]

Well, if they had a list of his awards, that should give you more information-- what did they offer? I would assume that means they have confirmed that he existed, and they probably should have had his corps listed. If the AMEDD people had it, I bet he was Medical Service Corps.

You won't find out much from the National Archives. Military records are very hard to get hold of, and currently the Army will NOT release any personal information. You are going to have to go other routes. Try the Medical Service Corps Association (Silver Caduceus Society) and see if they will give you any information. Sorry to not be able to help more-- this is a rough thing to do. Web searches will be your best bet, I suspect. Doc

[FrontlineAntiques]

Well, if they had a list of his awards, that should give you more information-- what did they offer? I would assume that means they have confirmed that he existed, and they probably should have had his corps listed. If the AMEDD people had it, I bet he was Medical Service Corps.

He didn't say that they had the records of any of Pats awards. They dont have any record of a JP Brennan being awarded a silver star. Not surprising really, considering we now know that he didn't have one!

He said that he will look at their other databases of awards to medical personel and let me know his findings, and he has also has put in a Freedom Of Information Act inquiry for informaion relating to our Colonel B.

The chaps name is Sergeant Major (Retired) Robert Ampula with the US Army Medical Department Regiment's History Branch. He has been very helpful, and is actually on a couple of research quests himself -

1- To attempt to catalogue EVERY award for valor to US Medical Department personnel. This must be a daunting task due to the differing levels of approval for the different awards.

and

2- Searching for information on an Army Medical Department Surgeon who was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for actions during the American Civil War. His name is variously listed as James Harry Thompson or Harry J.Thompson. He was born in England and there is reference to his having died in Great Yarmouth, England.

I have pointed him in the direction of this site, as i am sure he would find t beneficial

Edited October 27, 2009 by FrontlineAntiques

[W McSwiggan]

Actually - officer serial numbers went from those shown to social security in 1969.

I was commissioned in June of 1969 and was given an "OF" number (indicating Regular Army commission not reserve) and a matching ID card & Dog Tags.

As I recall - we flip flopped to social security numbers in September but could be mistaken - remember being peeved about wasting brain cells memorizing my old "OF" number... (less to burn later with alcohol).

Because he is not "OF" then he is not RA and hence will not be found in the West Point register.

Because of the "NSC" on his leather name tag, he could be any number of branches depending on which NSC he was assigned to but I guessing because of his vintage that it was the Natick Labs - the center for design and testing of soldier individual equipment right here in good old Massachusetts.

As Doc stated - Army is very tight fisted about personal information. This guy may remain a mystery.

Gustav

[Doc]

Actually - officer serial numbers went from those shown to social security in 1969.

I was commissioned in June of 1969 and was given an "OF" number (indicating Regular Army commission not reserve) and a matching ID card & Dog Tags.

As I recall - we flip flopped to social security numbers in September but could be mistaken - remember being peeved about wasting brain cells memorizing my old "OF" number... (less to burn later with alcohol).

Because he is not "OF" then he is not RA and hence will not be found in the West Point register.

Because of the "NSC" on his leather name tag, he could be any number of branches depending on which NSC he was assigned to but I guessing because of his vintage that it was the Natick Labs - the center for design and testing of soldier individual equipment right here in good old Massachusetts.

As Doc stated - Army is very tight fisted about personal information. This guy may remain a mystery.

Gustav

Gustav, Thanks for the information on when the Officer corps went to SSAN. I know that the Army started the conversion for enlisted personnel in about 1967, and during 67 and 68 dog tags had both the SSAN and the Army Serial Number on them. By the time I was commissioned in 71, we were all on SSAN.

I don't think your comment about the OF serial number is accurate-- The OF prefixes don't seem to have come into use until after the years in which I think these dogtags were produced. OF wasn't used until about 1964, by which time the Tetanus year on the tag was gone. Therefore, I would not have expected him to have an OF number. Doc

[W McSwiggan]

Doc,

That's the beauty of this club - plenty of opportunity to learn from each other!

Having personally experienced the flip-flop from "OF" to socials, I felt good about that time-line. The morph to "OF" was unknown to me - good to know.

Thanks,

Ned

Gustav, Thanks for the information on when the Officer corps went to SSAN. I know that the Army started the conversion for enlisted personnel in about 1967, and during 67 and 68 dog tags had both the SSAN and the Army Serial Number on them. By the time I was commissioned in 71, we were all on SSAN.

I don't think your comment about the OF serial number is accurate-- The OF prefixes don't seem to have come into use until after the years in which I think these dogtags were produced. OF wasn't used until about 1964, by which time the Tetanus year on the tag was gone. Therefore, I would not have expected him to have an OF number. Doc

[Doc]

Doc,

That's the beauty of this club - plenty of opportunity to learn from each other!

Having personally experienced the flip-flop from "OF" to socials, I felt good about that time-line. The morph to "OF" was unknown to me - good to know.

Thanks,

Ned

Yep, I learn a lot every day. Have a good one. Doc

[FrontlineAntiques]

I have just been given some helpful information. Fort Rucker, Alabama, is the home of Army Aviation and they have a museum.

This could prove helpful, they may be able to point me in the right direction :rolleyes:

[FrontlineAntiques]

I have just been given some helpful information. Fort Rucker, Alabama, is the home of Army Aviation and they have a museum.

This could prove helpful, they may be able to point me in the right direction

From the museum...

"We do not have specific information on the individual in question. My suspicion might be that with his pedigree of being a Senior Aviator and Master Parachutist, and after three tours in RVN, once he had obtained the rank of Colonel he was more than likely attached to the NSC - which I would assume to be the National Security Council. Not a typical career track, but he may well have had connections that made that so.

Remember that Oliver North, as a Marine LTC was assigned to the NSC. You are probably quite correct in his assumption that Brennan was not a Colonel at the time of his service in Vietnam."

So, no new information, but certainly backs up some of our thoughts.

How likely is it that he may have been attached to the National Security Council?

Dan

[Doc]

I have just been given some helpful information. Fort Rucker, Alabama, is the home of Army Aviation and they have a museum.

This could prove helpful, they may be able to point me in the right direction

I have already asked the Public Affairs Office at Ft. Rucker on your behalf, and am waiting for a response from them. Will let you know what I find out, if anything. I'm trying to have them review any lists of Army Pilots trained at Ft. Rucker which they have available, to see if we can find out anything about him. Contacting the Museum might be useful-- they have been very helpful to me in the past, but I have not asked them about him as of yet-- go ahead and give it a try.

Edit: messages crossed in the mail. Too bad the museum couldn't help. But, I seriously doubt he had three tours in VN-- That is probably simply 3 campaigns during a single one year tour.

As to National Security Council, it is possible, but I doubt it. That assignment would probably NOT have been put on his leather name tag. Doc

Edited October 28, 2009 by Doc

[FrontlineAntiques]

That assignment would probably NOT have been put on his leather name tag. Doc

Good point Doc!

News from Bob Ampula at the MSC -

The Medical Service Corps so far only has reference to a James P.Brennan, 2LT in 1970. This was from their Stud Book, which only liststheir location at the time. They are going to send an inquiry to the Silver Caduceus Society to see if anyone knows of him.

I hope this is him.

[W McSwiggan]

Why do you think he changed his name from John to James?

Remember - this guy was an officer no later than 1964 per Doc's serial number revelation.

During Vietnam there was no aviation branch.

All branches could fly - most damaging their careers by so doing.

MSC, TC and Armor were the branches to be in if an aviator as they had proponency over aspects of Army Aviation. The other branches were not happy to have their highly trained branch qualified officers off having fun in flying machines. I personally know a senior aviator in the grade of Major with every bravery medal except the Medal of Honor who was instructed by his branch (FA) to either get out of the cockpit or get out of Artillery. He propmtly transferred to Armor and saved his career.

Signal had activities involving ir traffic control and air space management. This plus his NSC name plate suggests an option as likely as MSC.

Please note that senior wings required 7 years of operational flying in addition to other requirements.

Heave on top of that the Master Parachute Wings and you are looking at some substantial time...

He could easily be a combat arms officer who transferred to aviation upon the branch creation if he was still around at that time.

I need to suggest that when you are seeking help that you provide facts and not speculation - the MSC proposal is speculative and could easily lead a helper up the wrong path. Translating NSC into any one of the other alternatives is equally troublesome.

While I'm sure that the NSC will not talk to you - perhaps the Soldier Care Center at the Natick Labs, Massachusetts would.

Good luck but as stated earlier - finding this guy is going to be a stretch especially if you change his name.

Wolfgang

Good point Doc!

News from Bob Ampula at the MSC -

The Medical Service Corps so far only has reference to a James P.Brennan, 2LT in 1970. This was from their Stud Book, which only liststheir location at the time. They are going to send an inquiry to the Silver Caduceus Society to see if anyone knows of him.

I hope this is him.

[FrontlineAntiques]

Why do you think he changed his name from John to James?

Remember - this guy was an officer no later than 1964 per Doc's serial number revelation.

During Vietnam there was no aviation branch.

All branches could fly - most damaging their careers by so doing.

MSC, TC and Armor were the branches to be in if an aviator as they had proponency over aspects of Army Aviation. The other branches were not happy to have their highly trained branch qualified officers off having fun in flying machines. I personally know a senior aviator in the grade of Major with every bravery medal except the Medal of Honor who was instructed by his branch (FA) to either get out of the cockpit or get out of Artillery. He propmtly transferred to Armor and saved his career.

Signal had activities involving ir traffic control and air space management. This plus his NSC name plate suggests an option as likely as MSC.

Please note that senior wings required 7 years of operational flying in addition to other requirements.

Heave on top of that the Master Parachute Wings and you are looking at some substantial time...

He could easily be a combat arms officer who transferred to aviation upon the branch creation if he was still around at that time.

I need to suggest that when you are seeking help that you provide facts and not speculation - the MSC proposal is speculative and could easily lead a helper up the wrong path. Translating NSC into any one of the other alternatives is equally troublesome.

While I'm sure that the NSC will not talk to you - perhaps the Soldier Care Center at the Natick Labs, Massachusetts would.

Good luck but as stated earlier - finding this guy is going to be a stretch especially if you change his name.

Wolfgang

Hi Wolfgang

In my excitement at gaining some possibly possitive information on our guy, i completely missread his name in the email from the MSC. A large schoolboy-error on my part. I am confident that the chaps name is John Patrick Brennan, and this is the name i am researching.

The Soldier Care Center at the Natick Labs is the next port of call, hope fully they will be able to help.

Dan