VICTORIA CROSS 'MYSTERY'

[StefanH]

You could be correct there Mervyn. We do have the same procedure in Sweden. But is doesn´t explain why the photo of the grave of the Abrahamses are in David Harveys book, cause it´s definitly not in the place of Peter Browns grave.

Hopefully Graham Lloyd can help us out here and find the place for the Abrahamses. Maybe that will explain matters.

[StefanH]

Dear Sirs

I do have some new information regarding the grave of Peter Brown. The grave number given in David Harveys book is correct. A check with the City Council Department in Cape Town has given this result.

Peter Brown, having no money at his death, was buried in a public grave with grave number 81594A. Two babies was buried at the top of him. Their names were Steenkamp and Williams. There was no stone to mark Peter Browns grave.

Where David Harvey got the information about the Abrahamses beeing buried on top of Peter Brown is a mystery, as is the photo in the book.

Stefan Hallberg

[Mervyn Mitton]

Stefan -Hi. That is very interesting information and explains a lot about what happened to his 'grave'. We call this type of burial - a 'paupers grave' - very sad that it should have happened to a man who won the World's highest Valour award.

[StefanH]

Hi Mervyn

Yes it´s very sad that the only Swede ever awarded this medal shouldn´t have a stone on his grave. Do you know if there are any funds or something like to correct this.

I´ve read articles about Victoria Cross holders having their graves restored.

Stefan

[moorosibook]

Those interested in knowing more about the war in which Peter Brown received his Victoria Cross might like to read a new historical novel called "Moorosi: A South African king's battle for survival" which I have just published after seven years research. I could not find out any more about Brown's background than is contained in this string, but I was able to obtain extensive information on his role in the battle and how he -- and Robert Scott also referred to in this string -- earned the Victoria Cross. The book contains the complete story of the war, which took place about the same time as the Zulu War and was completely overshadowed by it. Besides being a riveting tale, it is a fascinating case study in war and of interest to those who enjoy studying military strategy. The book is available on amazon.co.uk (and amazon.com) in print and Kindle versions.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Moorosibook - welcome to GMIC - and well done on your new book. Strange in some ways that an American (I presume ?)

has written a book on what was a rather obscure small war - and barely remembered now.

Are you sending books direct - I could well buy a copy, such an interesting period - however, I would like it signed. Mervyn

[W.D. du PLOOIJ]

Does anyone know anything about a Geoffrey O'Connell SCOTT whom also served with C.M.R.(Imperial) and the S.A.M.R. (I believe he went on to become a Police Inspector in British BETCHUANALAND

(BOTSWANA)).

I believe he had another 6 brothers whom also served, and that they served with a certain Maj. C.P. NEL (M.B.E. V.D.)of BEAUFORT-WEST - probably with the OUDTSHOORN Volunteer Rifles; as I have an article at the death of one brother: H.Raymond SCOTT, written by Maj. NEL.

There is further mention of brothers Charlie, Johhny, Willie and Dan in addition to Raymond and Geoffrey.

Four are said to have Volunteered durtng the 1897 BETCHUANALAND Campaign under a detachemnet of a Lt. J. BAWDEN, escorted by the O.V.R. Band on taking their leave.

Four also served with the O.V.R. during the Boer War - one being wounded in the VLAKTEPLAAS fight against Kommandant THERON's Kommandoe.

Maj. NEL also believed that Raymond may have also served some time in EAST AFRICA.

I also have an Embroidered Orange C.M.R. Badge with the CMR Beetle thereupon.

http://www.oudtshoorninfo.com/fauna.php?action=show_fauna&id=36&category=40

There seems to be a Museum in OUDTSHOORN in the name of Col. Charles Paul NEL

(I suspect that this is the Author of the Article I have for my Great Grampie G.O. SCOTT and his brothers)

http://www.oudtshoorninfo.com/culture.php?id=2&category=21

I am curious to know if Lieutenant Colonel (Sgt. at the time of his V.C. achievement) Robert George Scott VC DSO (22 April 1857 – 3 October 1918), whom earned his V.C. with the C.M.R. might be a relation of my Great-Grampie's family?

If anyone can assit me in any way I would be most grateful.

I also would like to share the Photo of the Badge that I have, as I have not seen any others like it Online.

[James Hoard]

Gentlemen,

I must say I am a little surprised by this thread and the surprise at the nationality of a supposed Swede with a British surname.

Mr Bown may actually belong to a family of Scots long settled in Sweden, who took military service there during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Whilst over the years many of these families may have changed the spellings of their names, so as to make them virtually unrecognizable to the average Scot, there still remain in Sweden Hamiltons, Douglases, Gordons, Bennetts and Montgomeries aplenty!

Anyone with a knowledge of Swedish military history must surely know of Field Marshal Count Douglas. Or, more recently of Lieutenant-General Charles Malcolm Murray who was (I think?) Chief of Staff in the learly 1970s. Interestingly, the latter was serving as Head of the King's Military Household and accompanied him during his State Visit to the UK, which took place in Edinburgh instead of London, in 1975.

Cheers,

James

[GRA]

You have some good and valid points there James, but keep in mind that those Scottish mercenaries (as they were) in Swedish service during the 17th-18th centuries that settled in Sweden were mostly (if not all of them) younger sons of Scottish noblemen being in time rewarded with land and titles for their service, thus becoming Swedish noblemen. Peter Brown seem to originate from more humble origins than those families you mention, and I personally don't think that too many former Scottish privates of the armies of Gustavus Adolphus settled down in Sweden and managed to keep their family name unchanged for 200 years.

There's of course a possibility that Peter Browns parents (or at least his father) were of British ancestry moving to Sweden to make a living, but until proven wrong my gut feeling is that Peter Brown was not the son of a merchant (or from the equivalent level of society), but from the working class or of farmer origin.

/Jonas

Edited November 11, 2012 by GRA

[James Hoard]

At the very least, when a noblemen of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries took service in foreign armies, he did not wonder about on his own or do his own laundry. He normally took someone 'to do the laundry' for him. Not to mention the very many other servants and followers who would normally accompany him. Very many such gentlemen also brought bands of recruits with them, if not actively recruited for their units amongst the clans back home.

I think the chances are far more likely that people of a more humble station in life would settle down where they were. Compared with noblemen who tended to wonder more wide afield and take service under more than one foreign ruler, or ultimately retire back to Scotland when their career was done.

Cheers,

James

[moorosibook]

Mervyn:

I apologize for the delay in responding. Thank you for your interest in my book, MOOROSI.

Although I live in Seattle now, I was born and raised in South Africa and spent many years covering politics for South African newspapers and magazines. I visited Lesotho several times in my early 20s and was captivated by the country, hence my interest in its history.

If you would like a signed copy of my book, please let me know by email at grahamf@moorosi.com and I will send you a copy.

Graham

[Mervyn Mitton]

James - are you trying a 'sneak' attack to take away Sweden's only Victoria Cross ? Surely, even with Scottish antecedents - after a few

generations they would be Swedish ? Stefan - I think you need to point out to James the error of his thinking..........................

Graham - pleased to hear from you. I would be grateful if you would IM me your price with air post - it will be my Christmas present

to me ! Once I have read it, I will do a review on our books section. Mervyn

[James Hoard]

James - are you trying a 'sneak' attack to take away Sweden's only Victoria Cross ? Surely, even with Scottish antecedents - after a few

generations they would be Swedish ? Stefan - I think you need to point out to James the error of his thinking..........................

Hardly, all I pointed out was that he may have a Scottish ancestry. If he were to lose his Swedish nationality on that score, there would be no such think as an American, Canadian or New Zealander.

[Mervyn Mitton]

James - I was only joking - honest....................

[Arthur R]

To bump up this topic : I was at the Cape Town Archives today, and I had a quick look at Peter Brown VC's deceased estate papers.

The death notice was filled in by Joseph Smiles of 1 Primrose Street, District Six, Cape Town. Brown had been lodging with him, and Smiles claimed against the estate for board and lodging. Smiles gave Brown's birthplace as Sweden, and his age as 61 years and 10 months. That would mean a date of birth in November/December 1832. He described Brown as an "army pensioner".

Apparently Brown was illiterate : to support his claim for payment from the estate, Smiles submitted bills for board and lodging which Brown had signed with an X.

I also found a file for a liquor retailer named Peter Brown who had been declared insolvent in 1864, i.e. thirty years earlier. I've no idea if it was the same man, but (a) he too signed his name with a X, (b) his address had been 6 Hanover Street, District Six, Cape Town, which was literally around the corner from 1 Primrose Street, and (c ) Brown VC is said to have joined the Frontier Armed & Mounted Police around 1864. If it was the same man, was the business failure perhaps the reason for his enlistment?

[Mervyn Mitton]

Arthur - that information is so relevant to this man's background. I am sure a lot of people in the medal world will be

interested. Perhaps City Coins could include it in one of their ref. works ? Mervyn

[StefanH]

Hi Arthur

It´s been a year since I´ve read this topic about Peter Brown. We are still struggling trying to find his correct identity. I´ve read the book Moorosi by Graham Fysh. He had two details there that was new to me. The first was that Peter Browns name was "Brun", and the second one was that he got to South Africa with his parents. When I asked him to give me the details of his sources he could not do so, so I´m still not to sure if it´s fact or fiction what´s stated in the book.

However, reading your comment again one thing struck me. If Peter Brown the VC holder and Peter Brown the liquor retailer are the same person it would be interesting to know if there is more personal information available in the archives about Peter Brown the liquor retailer. Could you help me to find out more about this ??

best regards

Stefan Hallberg

[peter monahan]

Fascinating! Yes, please do keep sleuthing if you can.

[Chris Boonzaier]

To bump up this topic

The death notice was filled in by Joseph Smiles of 1 Primrose Street, District Six, Cape Town.

That clears up the Abrahamse grave then.... The Turn over of Graves was probably every 20 years or so?

Abrahamse is a coloured name, District Six the coloured area at the time...