New Boy needs help with medal bars

[Phil Steele]

Hi Guys,

I am a new comer to Imperial items and know very little about the awards and really do need some help from you guys. For a start I have been collecting over ten years but primarily Third Reich items and in particular war badges. I am no expert but after learning the hard way I do know a bit about them and the plethora of fakes that abound. In recent times my interests have changed. So much so that now I am virtually solely interested in medal bars. I only have 5 at the moment and my first three purchases were mixed medal bars with awards from both wars but now I have started to seriously just look at medal bars from World War 1 and want to learn about them.

As a married man with a mortgage I cannot spend large amounts on this hobby and indeed have to save and or pay off just about every single purchase so it is important that I get it right. I have already made a bad choice about 6 months ago (see early post) when I purchased from ebay a medal bar which was no good at all. Thankfully the medals were the real thing but the ribbons were modern and the bar a put together. Apart from wasting the money (thankfully its was not a lot) it does leave a sour taste in your mouth. I purchased Tom's book on parade bars of the Third Reich and use it a lot (thanks Tom) but it does not deal with Imperial items in detail. I am going to post two medal bars that I purchased recently and would like your opinions on both. If possible I would like to know what you can say about the man who had that medal bar. I know the original owner cannot be traced but maybe you could tell me if that soldier was an officer or not and maybe where he came from. You see I cant understand how a medal bar can contain different medals from different states. How can a soldier with a Saxon order be also awarded a Wurtemberg medal then also have a Prussian service medal (maybe not accurate but you get what I am trying to say). This confuses me greatly. I dont have it yet but will post it when I get it but I have just spent big for me and purchased a 5 piece bar with EK2, Albert Order Knights Cross 1st class (not with crown), WW1 front fighters medal, Austrian Comm medal and Hungarian Comm medal. This has cost me a fair bit and will take me 5 to 6 months to pay off so I am hoping like hell I have not made a mistake but from my description do you think this medal bar would be ok and would there be a chance to trace the orginal owner?

I apologise that this is a lengthy thread but I am keen to learn from you guys so any help will be greatly appreciated and please before answering what to you may be a dumb question, realise that I am not trying to take the mickey and just need help.

Thanks in advance and here are the two medal bars...sorry about the scans as they are out of focus but you can get the idea.

Phil

[Phil Steele]

Whoops...just read Rick's thread on asking questions about items for sale so ignore the question regarding the medal bar that I have yet to receive. I will post it when it arrives and seek your knowledge then but in the mean time the two pictured bars are now mine and I would like to know a bit about them if possible. Another question that springs to mind concerns the bar with the FJ medal....if the recipient was Austrian which I am assuming he was why then would he not have the Austrian Comm war medal as well. These along with the Hungarian Comm medal are common on medal bars that I look at so just wonder why they are not present on this one. As I said I am trying to learn so you have to bear with me.

Phil

[Guest Rick Research]

It's not easy and there are no shortcuts to decades of slogging away at this OR hyper-specializing and sticking to one very tight sub-area of focus-- and that would get boring fast not turning things up for long stretches of time. I've been doing this 40+ years and there are still entire imperial states whose awards I have NEVER seen to handle in my paws.

The top medal bar has a "Baden long service" awards ribbon in last place, which is fairly strange (though not impossible) for somebody decorated only by Prussia and Bremen. I suspect what SHOULD be in last place-- because the Cross in last place is NOT the Baden pattern--is a 1918 Finnish Medal of Liberty 2nd Class (bronze). I don't happen to have a 1918 in Bronze, but here is a 1941 Silver and a 1939 Bronze side by side-- the obverses are the same on ALL THREE wars' issues, but will have the dates 1918, 1939, or 1941 on reverse sides:

German outfitters often made due with "close enough" ribbons for exotic foreign stuff not normally in stock when a customer walked in and needed his medal bar then and there. It can only have been the 1918 issue. The Finns used different ribbons for different classes of the same award. The Order of the Cross of Liberty also had different ribbons by grade.

Second bar is odd looking since awards were meant to be level across the bottom. What would seem to have hung there normally would be any of the Small Silver or the Bronze class Bravery Medals of either Franz Joseph or Karl. BUT if somebody did pull a switcheroo, the joke's on them, because a Silver Merit Cross with Crown on the War Ribbon is much more valuable. Would have gone to a technical arms type (telephones, engineers, support staff) at Sergeant level. All the enamel looks intact

though hard to tell from your camera shots (Epsssssson scnanner. Epssssssssson scanner....)

The first bar was probably worn by a private/sailor or junior non-career NCO/PO. The second bar, as is if that is how it was made, for a reserve or Landwehr NCO without enough long service in the reserves for that medal (suspended in 1914 and never issued after that).

I assume your Saxon bar has a Knight SECOND Class-- swords but no wreath between the arms? That would be for Lieutenants. A slightly larger Order with round green wreath between the arms and swords over that would have gone to a Captain. Absolutely no way to trace a pair like that. Basically every Saxon officer had the same.

Generally, unless the combination is for a long serving officer who can be tracked through annual rank Lists, no hope.

[Phil Steele]

Thanks Rick for your time and help. Si it would seem the first bar has the wrong medal on the end and the second may or may not be legit. Boy this is going to be an interesting hobby. Still I am happy with the two bars. The bar on route is the Albert order with the wreath so that then makes it a Captains bar. Ok good enough for now and as you said not traceable. I think I may just stick to NCO/enlisted men medal bars for now until I learn a lot more about this. Fascinating yet frustrating not to mention expensive. Again really appreciate your time and help.

Phil

[Paul C]

Phil, Welcome to to Imperial side of collecting. To become familiar with Imperial Orders I would suggest this website:

http://home.att.net/~david.danner/militaria.html

It is a good overview. The easiest way to tell an officer bar from an enlisted man's bar is with the long service cross. EM received thier first long service award after 5 years, officers had to wait 25 years. I would also study the imperial German section of this forum. There is a great amount of information here.

Another point, it is hard and expensive to find a pure Imperial German bar w/o any Third Reich awards on it. I include the Hindenburg cross as a Third Reich award since it was given out after January 1933. Also medal bars to officers are more expensive then medal bars to EM. While we do not talk about items that are for sale feel free to PM me if you are considering a purchase. I am happy to help you out as to figuring out the "details" of the bar. Good Luck!

[Phil Steele]

Paul...will take your advice and do just that. Thankyou very much.

[Jason]

Gday Phil, nice to see another Aussie here in Imperial, we're few and far between! Welcome to the best Imperial forum on the 'net. cheers from Brisbane!

Jason

[Phil Steele]

Thanks Jason...so far so good nice and friendly unlike some I could mention. Also a fair bit of knowledge to be levered out of a few of the more experienced guys by us newbies...again unlike some I could mention. Stay well up there in Sunny Qld