Schott U-boat Badges

[Bosungus]

Thanks Tim, best I can do with the pics. I'm working with 75kb limitation unless

I'm doing something wrong. Thanks for looking. Wanted to point out that there

are other variations other than gilded bronze and Schot did make silver Schot badges.

I also have another U boat badge marked .800 silver.

thanks Bosun Gus

[Tim B]

Hi Gus,

So, are you an actual Bosun (Warrant)?

On the badge; yes, quite possible as so many post-war pieces were made to custom orders for those that wanted them. Silver versions would be completely unofficial though I believe? I do like the number's (font style) on the .935 and the patina looks somewhat period, but I would expect darker, almost black and not the brownish color. I am certainly no authority on those points and I know silver can be artificially toned, so..

I still question that pin and catch; that is the biggest concern I would have. As far as the die lines being completely different from the known, official, badges ... I can't say if it's a special run for silver issues, but I still have my doubts on originality.

Perhaps more will comment on this now. Gordon Williamson would be a good source to ask if no one comments here. Best of luck on it!

Tim

Edited March 8, 2010 by Tim B

[Bosungus]

Thanks Tim,

BosunGus is my user id and honors my surrogate grandfather "Gus" Ture Alfvegren; Bosun, His Royal Majesty's Merchant Marine, (UK)

T.S.S. "Lake Michigan" torpedoed in the North Atlantic by U-Boat 100 under the command of KptLt Deganhart von Loe on 16 April,1918.

[Bosungus]

Image of front of U Boat badgemarked .800

[Bosungus]

Image of back marked .800

[dond]

As with Tim, I have serious reservations with this badge. The edges on the reverse give it a cast appearance. If that is the case then why the added marking?

[Bosungus]

Interesting and informative discussion. Thanks

It may very well be that Schott did not manufacture U boat badges.

As noted on Schott's mark followed by "fec" indicates he created the design.

There were obviously other firms that manufactured them; Junker,Meybauer,etc the early ones possibly cast and no die struck

and I would imagine silversmiths produced them as well as evidenced by the varying degree of detail, material and craftsmanship.

[dond]

But if it is a jeweller made piece why is theSchott mark trying to look like the mark found on original badges produced by an authorized maker? Makes no sense for a jeweller to mark it this way. If anything other than silver content, I'd expect a jeweller's mark.

[Tim B]

Hi Don,

Thanks for coming in. I tend to agree that the badge appears cast. The lines are rough looking and the details very soft IMO. The details should look much sharper, even if worn. With that last close-up of the pin, I like it and the catch even less. Almost looks like it has a base similar to what you would see on zinc items. Not sure if there is anything under the hinge. Gus?

I am also looking at the reverse finish and ... is that spotting actually pitting on the surface? That would show evidence of casting. If it's the patina that makes it look this way, then I don't know, but if it's small pitting, that would seal my convictions on this being no good.

Gus,

There were other makers as you stated; Meybauer, Juncker, AWS, S&L to name the major ones that I know of, but your badge doesn't match any of them and as Don said, if a jeweler was contracted to produce one of these, first, he would not put the Schott mark on it and second, most jeweler pieces I have seen far exceed any mass produced pieces in quality. This one doesn't. Sorry, my vote is still negative here.

Tim

[Bosungus]

Thanks dond,

So where does that leave the badge?

Good point, although I can't imagine someone making a U Boat badge out of sterling silver (.935), using what looks like a real Schott

mark,going thru the trouble of the fine detail, crown,cross, wreath leaves etc., and as I presented in another post, the same

badge in (.800) without the Schott mark. Seems like a lot of craftsmanship went into making this.

Thank you for your viewpoint.

BosunGus

[Gordon Williamson]

I'm afraid I'd have to agree with Tim and Don. There are a awful lot of repro solid silver WW1 U-Boat badges out there. Despite all having different detail, they usually carry the Walter Schott mark which so far has only been linked with one manufacturer.

Here's another 800 silver copy. Very well made, better than the usual quality of copies but differing considerably in detail when compared with known original Walter Schott marked pieces.

[Bosungus]

Thanks Tim,

There is nothing under the hinge.

The finish on the reverse is smooth and spotted.

I have attached one more image in an attempt to show the detail.

Thanks for all your imput, great discussion.

Bosungus

[Tim B]

Thanks Gordon!

Gus,

Just one point for comparison; take a look at the scroll on the top of the wreaths and note the die patterns are identical for both your badge and the fake badge Gordon posted. This is considerably different from all the originals by various other makers.

Tim

[Bosungus]

Thanks Tim B,dond & Gordon for taking the time to look these over.

I appreciate your analysis and opinions and the opportunity to participate in the discussion.

Bosungus

[Beau Newman]

Just to confuse things more -

Here is a Schot marked badge with a "coke bottle" pin that seems to match up with the previous examples very well in the obverse details:

[Beau Newman]

The reverse:

[Tim B]

Hi Beau!

Yes, appears to be a nice original badge!

Keep in mind that these continued to be made into the 30's, so we see a number of variations with hardware. I tend to think, with this style pin, that it might be a later made piece. With that said, there is some discoloration (due to heat?) on the reverse and perhaps the pin and/or hinge might have been repaired/replaced at one point. Do you see any indication of that in hand?

Now, what I want to add is that the badge itself shows no die flaw like the one I pointed out on mine, and that tells me the piece is of the earliest strike, so that tends to lead me to a replaced pin, but I am not sure. Anybody else?

One thing I still have questions on concerning these Schott marked badges; the reverse on originals always have these machine striations (scratches) on the surface and most examples I have seen are usually running in one direction, some go in various directions. Is there any rhyme or reason to what we should be seeing on these (orignals)?

Nice looking badge and a nice addition to the thread!

Tim

Edited March 16, 2010 by Tim B

[Beau Newman]

With that said, there is some discoloration (due to heat?) on the reverse and perhaps the pin and/or hinge might have been repaired/replaced at one point. Do you see any indication of that in hand?

Tim

I had the same thought. If it has been replaced, it was very well done as I can find no sign of any previous hardware.

[dond]

A replaced pin is a good observation imo. As to the striations on the backs I would say they are from a wheel sander used to remove burrs after the trimming process.

[Bosungus]

Hi TimB,

I have studied the scroll and to me they do not appear the same. In addition the

cross on the crown certainly is not of the same mold as the example you posted.

There appears to me, too many differences.

Thanks, Gus

Edited March 17, 2010 by Bosungus

[Tim B]

I'm afraid I'd have to agree with Tim and Don. There are a awful lot of repro solid silver WW1 U-Boat badges out there. Despite all having different detail, they usually carry the Walter Schott mark which so far has only been linked with one manufacturer.

Here's another 800 silver copy. Very well made, better than the usual quality of copies but differing considerably in detail when compared with known original Walter Schott marked pieces.

Gus,

As Gordon explained in the above excerpt; there are many copies of this badge, some carrying the Schott markings but, they all differ in details from known originals. Now, I know we can go back and forth here pointing out similarities and differences and never come to an agreement, so I'll post a couple more comparison shots and leave it at that. If you can't see the similarities of your badge to the other fake Gordon showed as an example, and can't see the differences between your badge and a known Schott marked original, then I am afraid I can't help you.

Bottom line, you have to be happy with the pieces in your collection and if you're happy and confident that this badge is good to you, then it doesn't really matter what others think. Believe me when I say that I find absolutely no joy in telling someone that an item in their collection is not what they think it is, so I have nothing to gain here either way. Enjoy your badge Gus, that's what matters.

Tim

First comparison: Your badge to Gordon's silver fake; compare the cross style and note how the cross bar (horizontal bar) is higher up on the vertical bar (resembles an actual cross). Note all the circled areas and note the similarities. Note the scroll and wreath leaves and how similar they are to one another. Other areas as well.

[Tim B]

Now, here's a comparison between your badge and an original Schott badge. Note the differences, again highlighted in red. Also note how the general shape of the "boat" is compared to the one Gordon showed and an original; your's matches the fake, not the original badge. Look at the cross & crown differences.

That's all I can say. Best wishes.

Tim

[Tim B]

Best I can do.

Tim

[Bosungus]

Thanks all.

this is why I have joined the forum, indepth discussion, sharing of ideas and opinions and too learn all the peculiarities

in these u boat badges. There is so much to learn and its obvious that you have acquired alot of knowledge and are able to apply it.

I have learned a lot and I thank you all for sharing it.

thanks, Bosungus

Edited March 18, 2010 by Bosungus

[dond]

Better pics of mine.