Montreal Engineers, Victorian era Canadian Militia Uniform

[jholl72]

Hey guys,

Picked this up from a guy over at WAF, found at an estate sale. I had to take a chance at it as Canadian Victorian era uniforms are extremely hard to find.

Now I know nothing about them and finding online references is next to impossible also. So I am looking for some help from the members here who may have or have handled some of these uniforms.

I do know it is old, but how old and is it an original Militia uniform.

The Montreal Engineers were raised in 1862 and were disbanded in 1892. As I understand it there was little uniform regulations at the time and several regiments had these braided and knotted style of uniform.

There is a few things that I have questioned and will point them out here and hopefully we can generate some discussion on these.

First the jacket itself appears to be a more traditional Canadian uniform that has been altered to conform to what the ME's wanted. There are button holes on the uniform that have been sewn up and the bullion collar covers what appears to be a more traditional dark blue or black collar, the inside of the collar has also had a silky material added.

The buttons have about three different colours of thread and there are several different colours of thread on repairs about the uniform.

Could these be period repairs or attempts at conservation.

I should mention that inside the right shoulder I found what look to be museum inventory numbers, so perhaps this uniform has had some restoration/conservation work done.

Some of the original stitching has disintegrated and the seems have come loose, so this seems possible.

The bottom two buttons are US, possibly civil war era buttons, made by Waterbury Button Co. and Waterbury Scovill Mfg. Co.....perhaps to replace missing buttons to put it on display?

The other front buttons and the four cuff buttons are all Victorian era Montreal Engineers buttons made by Hebbert & Co. London.

I looked up the button manufacturers and both were actively producing military buttons during the 1862-1892 period.

I can provide as many pictures as needed of whatever anyone wants to see.

The question is..is it original??

Edited March 27, 2010 by jholl72

[jholl72]

More pics, I tried to use a photo hosting site to make it easier but the forum wouldn't allow it.

[jholl72]

more pics

[jholl72]

Museum stamp???

[jholl72]

stamp on uniform.

[jholl72]

pics

[jholl72]

ME button

[jholl72]

111111111

[jholl72]

sewn up button hole from the inside.

[jholl72]

Blue collar underneath bullion collar

[jholl72]

2222222222222

[jholl72]

33333333333333333

[jholl72]

hook and eye closures.

[jholl72]

last pic, more available is needed.

[Mike Dwyer]

Interesting. On photo #6 that's a USA button! :whistle:

[jholl72]

Interesting. On photo #6 that's a USA button!

Yes it is a US button, as mentioned in my post. It appears to be the same vintage as the other buttons and the uniform itself. I wondered if they had been added perhaps by a museum/collector to replace missing buttons that would be near impossible to find.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Pretty difficult to build a bridge in that!!

[jholl72]

The US buttons don't belong on this uniform and are not original to it, I know that. I am not trying to establish whether they belong on it or not, they don't. I was just spitballing about why they might be on there because they are on there and someone put them on there for a reason. But that is not important, if the rest of the uniform is good, that is important.

In fact the seller didn't provide or mention that the bottom buttons were US. I specifically asked as in his overall pic of the front of the uniform the bottom two buttons looked different. He replied they were all the same. I have the basis for a return right there, but really want to know if the rest of the uniform is OK. I have my doubts, that's why I am looking for others opinions.

[Mike Dwyer]

Yes it is a US button, as mentioned in my post. It appears to be the same vintage as the other buttons and the uniform itself. I wondered if they had been added perhaps by a museum/collector to replace missing buttons that would be near impossible to find.

Ooops! Sorry, I got so interested in the photos I didn't read all of the text and I missed where you mentioned the US buttons. :speechless:

[William1]

I don't know anything about Canadian uniforms so can't comment on what should be on this. But whatever it is is clearly an early piece. From the hand stitching and the look generally I would have said 1870s-1880s, which fits with the date range for this unit. We all know how rare kit of this age is, so unless it was a horrendously expensive piece, personally I'd hang onto it. A good thing, one way or another.

[Laurence Strong]

Try posting it here. There could be members of the 34 Combat Engineer Regt who frequnet the forum. They are the militia regiment in Montreal now:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/board,7.0.html

[jholl72]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the information. It is an old piece, no question and it was not horrendously expensive...but not cheap either.

I took it to the Etobicoke Militaria Show today and had a couple of people look at it and both liked it.

One suggested it might be an enlisted mans uniform, converted to an officers uniform as they wouldn't have been issued another uniform in those days.

Lawrence, thanks for the information. I have been on the website and didn't see any contact information for the 34th, but will look into it a little deeper now that I have some time. I will post it on the forum you have linked, thanks.

I have found several period newspaper articles involving the Montreal Engineers through an online search. I will post some of the more intersting ones, once I figure out how to save a copy to my computer.

[jholl72]

Hi guys,

It has been a year since I posted this topic and I have not been able to add any new information to it. I have contacted the 34th CER's and they had no information. I contacted the Quebec provincial archives and the City of Montreal with no luck. I have also been in touch with the War Museum in Ottawa and the National Archives in Ottawa with no luck. I have even contacted the Engineers Museum in the maritimes with no luck.

Is this regiment that rare? I thought I would bump this one back up and see if anyone else had some input.

[Graham Stewart]

I'm not familiar with Canadian uniforms either, but it was interesting to note that the original dark blue collar seemed to have been overlayed with a lace one at a later date. The stamping's on the interior of the jacket and the hessian interior are in line with similar other ranks pattern British scarlet jackets that I have in my collection, although the Clothing Department here also placed paper size labels in them too. The material overall seems to be Melton cloth, which is the same material used in the manufacture of British jackets too

I also wonder if the purpose of adding the overlayed lace collar, was to turn the jacket from a plain other ranks into perhaps a bandsmans jacket???

[servicepub]

I don't know anything about Canadian uniforms so can't comment on what should be on this. But whatever it is is clearly an early piece. From the hand stitching and the look generally I would have said 1870s-1880s, which fits with the date range for this unit. We all know how rare kit of this age is, so unless it was a horrendously expensive piece, personally I'd hang onto it. A good thing, one way or another.

I would suggest the the date of the tunic is shown in the stamp '5/10', i.e., May 1910. This is most likely a standard Infantry tunic that has been tarted up as a stage prop and the 'museum' number is more likely an inventory number. The tunic shows the frogging of a Hussars regiment but Hussars wore blue tunics. Further, the gold braid on the colour is unlike any authorized braid that would be worn by a Sr NCO.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Clive