County Constabulary Police Officer's photo

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Everyone,
While trolling through a local Antiques Mall lately I "caught" this small cabinet photo of a police officer that I am assuming is British.
I believe the collar number is 1588 and I am assuming he is Britiah due to the St. John's Ambulance badge on his left arm and the general look of the officer's uniform. This is a metal St. John's badge that predated the cloth patch, which I beleive has now been discontinued all together in some, if not all, British police services. I've been told (relying on memory only) that the Met. wore their whistles in the breast pocket and not tucked into the tunic as in this photo, if that is accurate then it would eliminate the Met. as a possible service.

I've tried to include the best photo possible of the belt buckle and I'd say it is as good as the original photo for clairity. Perhaps the general design of the buckle will be enough for some of the more seasoned police collectors within our membership to make an identification. Also if there is an opinion as to the era in which this officer served I would greatly appreciate hearing it.

Thanks for any assistance you can give me.
Regards
Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

This is a closeup of the collar number, too bad the collar badge is not shown better, though it looks to have been fairly thick as it seems to stand out quite a bit from the surface of the collar itself.

[Brian Wolfe]

This is a closer look at the belt buckle which might be the best, in not only, clue to the force this officer served with.

Thanks again for your help.

Regards

Brian

[Odin Mk 3]

Not that it is a lot of help but the highest Divisonal Number that I can find for the Met for the period 1860-1930 is 1280. So another reason to rule the Met out.

[Mervyn Mitton]

I agree with Odin on the numbering - the Met. are numbered by Division and only the largest go much over a thousand. The whistle is being worn correctly - although I think on our No One uniform we had a small inside pocket. Don't recognise the CofA's. If no one identifies it I will go through my book of British Towns and Boroughs heraldry.

[NickLangley]

Looks like a City Of Manchester uniform from around the turn of the century

[Brian Wolfe]

Looks like a City Of Manchester uniform from around the turn of the century

Hi Nick,

I was looking at the City of Manchester Coat of Arms and it seems different from the belt buckle, unless there was an older version of the CofA.

Regards

Brian

[Tom King]

Whistle is worn in the tradition style for that era of tunic including the Met there was a small pocket on the inside of the tunic. Clearly not Met as already stated as the collar numbers are wrong and the belt and buttons are different, the Met had 'S' snake belt buckles similar to the military of the period, also if I am not mistaken the Met never authorised the wearing of St Johns Badges.

Unless Nick has other info the belt buckle does not look like the current City of Manchester Coat of Arms, this is a really interesting photo I can't help thinking maybe a Scottish Police but would they have had the St Johns Badge ?

[NickLangley]

With a four digit collar serial it's unlikely to be a small borough force. Here is a link to a picture of a City of Manchester constable whose uniform and belt buckle are very similar.

Manchester constable

And here is another photo of two Manchester officers from 1910. It looks as if there is a large collar badge on the RH officer holding the suffragette.

Manchester constables

Edited April 7, 2010 by NickLangley

[Mervyn Mitton]

The Manchester C of A's usually incorporates the sloping bands from the Dukes of Manchester. They look lions - or, something similar ?

[Tom King]

Here is the picture blown up a bit t looks like two figures either side of the central shield

[SCcollector]

I've dropped in a few scans which may or may not help the debate. The belt is obviously of a different type but Manchester most likely used more than one. The close up of the HP does show some similarities to the buckle on Brian's photograph.

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Everyone,

Kevin's post of the St. John's Badge gave me the idea of enlarging that part in my photo.

This is as close as I can get at the moment. I have a new 12.1 mega pixel camera still in the box with a close up feature down to 1cm so I may be able to post a clear and closer photo when I fugure out the new camera.

Until then perhaps someone can play with this image to see if the badge has the police service named.

Thanks again for all of you help.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

I'm trying a larger size.

Is that Manchester on the badge? I think (or imagine) I can see CHESTE or something like it.

Brian

Edited April 8, 2010 by Brian Wolfe

[Tom King]

This is really getting to me I have spent quite a lot of time getting no where researching this. Have you a scanner ? Can you scan this at a high resolution as I am getting pixilation it does look like it could be Manchester.

[NickLangley]

This photograph shows Manchester officers wearing both styles of the belt buckle.

Manchester officers

While this photo, though rather earlier, shows the buckle in slightly better detail

Manchester officer

Edited April 9, 2010 by NickLangley

[NickLangley]

This photograph shows Manchester officers wearing both styles of the belt buckle.

[Brian Wolfe]

This is really getting to me I have spent quite a lot of time getting no where researching this. Have you a scanner ? Can you scan this at a high resolution as I am getting pixilation it does look like it could be Manchester.

My scanner is not of a very good quality but I will see what it will do this weekend.

Regards

Brian

[Mervyn Mitton]

I have been through the standard work 'Corporate and Municipal Heraldry' and the closest I can come are the arme for Chester. If the three figures in the centre of the badge are Lions Passant - then they are quite rare in Corporate heraldry. Mostly Lions are showing as Rampant - standing. I suppose the thinking was they they looked too similar to the Royal Arms. The main part of Chester's arms go back to 1580.

Only Chester shows three, as on the badge , however, the supporters don't look exactly the same. Chester's are a Lion and a Wolf. See what everyone thinks - the alternative is Scotland. For myself, I can't see Manchester - different supporters and centre.

These later arms show only half of the lion - they would probably have been entire in the earlier version.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Mervyn Mitton

[Mervyn Mitton]

[Mervyn Mitton]

The only reason to show this CofA is that the lion passant is in full. Also, the drawings of the lion and the wolf are very clear.

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Mervyn,

I'm not sure about the second one but I don't believe the first Coat of Arms is the one.

This is a true mystery.

I have been looking for Canadian Police possibilities since I purchased the photo locally. I don't think they wore a St.John's badge, so I am still thinking the officer is British.

Hi Tom,

The attempts at using my scanner was a bust. My dear wife intervened otherwise it would have been in the bin this morning.

I do have a new camera with a closeup feature that allows photos withion 1/2 inch distance and when I read all of the instructions and get it loaded into my computer this may give us the answer.

Many thanks to all for your time spent on this investigation.

Regards

Brian

[NickLangley]

Why on earth would a tiny force like Chester City have a four digit serial?

This is a photo of a Chester City constable from the turn of the century.

Photo

Edited April 11, 2010 by NickLangley

[Dave Wilkinson]

Brian,

I appreciate that this thread is VERY old, but I have only just happened upon it. Your photograph of of a member of the Lancashire Constabulary. The "old" County Arms are depicted upon the belt plate. The supporters on the arms are (unusually) two dogs. The first aid badge on his arm reads "Lancashire Constabulary". I hope that eventually getting an answer to your long ago posed question was worth the wait!

Best wishes,

Dave.