Photo of Toronto Militia c. 1895?

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Everuyone,

I purchased a photo of a group of militia that was labelled as Toronto Militia 1887.

I know the date is incorrect as it shows the Lee Metford Mk II Rifle that was not adopted until 1895. I would wager that the photo would have been taken even after this date due to the time it would have taken to supply Canadians; if indeed this is a Canadian Reiment.

The swords carried by the officers look to be the pattern of sword issued to Rifle Brigades from 1834 to 1895.

I can not make out the hat badges otherwise this mystery would be easier to solve. If this is Canadian perhaps the shape of the hat badge is a clue but not one I can decipher.

Ill post several close ups with the hope it will help.

Thank you for any assistance you can give me.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

Here's a closer view of the officer to the right of the photo showing the sword.

This is as close as I can go without the loss of detail.

[Brian Wolfe]

Here's the officer to the left of the photo.

One of the photos coming up shows the sword closer as well as the Lee Metford.

[Brian Wolfe]

In this photo I've tried to show the sword more closely as well as the rifle.

[Brian Wolfe]

I don't think there is any doubt about the rifle being the Lee Metford Mk II or Mk II* (but that detail is not clear in the photos), however here is another close up view anyway.

Thanks again for any help you can give me.

Regards

Brian

[Stuart Bates]

Brian,

I asked a friend who specializes in swords and here are his thoughts for what they are worth -

email 1. I think the sword would be a Rifle Regiment type, and the rifle looks like a Lee-Metford or such like

email 2. I might retract that, the pommel looks a bit like that associated with the brass Gothic hilted infantry sword, which was regulation up the intro of the 1895 guard

email 3. Also looks like quite an early style Sam Browne belt (possibly 1895 - 1900), the sword having a standard type metal scabbard which is fitted with sling rings; my guess would be that the sword is an earlier pattern that was already in hand or belonged to the family, otherwise one would expect to see a Sam Browne leather covered scabbard

Stuart

Edited April 6, 2010 by Stuart Bates

[Brian Wolfe]

Thanks Stuart and thanks to your friend.

That is starting the close in on a date (1895 - 1900).

That would place it around the Boer War era.

Regards

Brian

[Stuart Bates]

Brian,

just thought of something else. Namely that the forage caps worn by the two officers were introduced into the British Army in 1905.

Stuart

[Brian Wolfe]

Brian,

just thought of something else. Namely that the forage caps worn by the two officers were introduced into the British Army in 1905.

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Good eye. That pushes the date of the photo forward to after the Boer War era.

Thanks for your input, it makes the mystery much clearer.

Regards

Brian

[Mark C]

I'm not sure that the officers' caps with visors are called forage caps. Anyways, the white cover on such a cap is in my recollection associated with post-Boer War. The officers may be in dark blue and not the red of the enlisted men.

Hope this helps,

MarkC

Maryland

[Brian Wolfe]

Thanks Mark,

Every bit of information helps to solve this or any mystery.

It's like a criminal investigation, we garther what we know about the scene and in the end we hope to solve the case.

I started out with the wrong date and now we are closing in.

Regards and thanks again.

Brian

[Stuart Bates]

The Dress Regulations of 1904 (1st October) define this type of cap as the Forage Cap and contains a photograph of an example with the caption "TYPE OF FORAGE CAP". The colour was blue or green for Rifle Regiments. The DRs also say "White covers may be worn in hot weather."

A Service Dress cap of similar design is also described and was made of "material to match the Service dress, of cotton, yarn-proofed." That would mean serge.

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

This form of Forage Cap was around at least as early as 1902. I found a couple of photos of examples to the Norfolk Yeomanry with captions giving dates of wear 1902-1914. It was referred to as the "Staff Pattern" forage cap and other Yeomanry units used it c1902.

I have to correct my earlier date of 1905 for the British Army since these caps appear in the 1904 DRs, as previously stated. Perhaps the 1905 date is for Other Ranks' adoption.

Stuart

Edited April 19, 2010 by Stuart Bates

[Brian Wolfe]

Thanks Stuart.

This places the photo just after the Boer War period, the dealer had it as 1887, which I knew could not have been correct.

Regards

Brian

[Michael Johnson]

The officers' cap badges look vaguely familiar. I am reasonably sure that the unit isn't Toronto, but I'll need to pull my reference book to be sure. Something tells me 31st Grey Regiment. It certainly seems the right shape, and the 31st wore that style of uniform. The naval style peaked cap was introduced in 1902.

As a rural corps, the 31st would probably not have recieved the Ross rifle by 1914.

And, incidentally, the picket fence looks like one seen in photos of Niagara Camp.

[leigh kitchen]

The officers cap badges remind me of the shield shaped badge of one of the WWI Construction Battalions - No. 2, but as I think that unit was'nt formed until WWI.......

On closer inspection - a coronet or bugle over a circular wreath?

Edited April 20, 2010 by leigh kitchen

[Michael Johnson]

I checked Mazeas, and I'm 99% sure it's the 31st Grey Regiment.

[Brian Wolfe]

Many thanks for all of the research that has been done on this photo.

Not only was the date off the regiment was not correct either.

Thanks again.

Regards

Brian

[servicepub]

I am coming to this very late but here are my two cents worth. The pattern forage cap shown (with large crown) was introduced into Canadian service in 1899 and was originally known as the Staff Pattern or Naval Pattern. By 1902 it had virtually relaced the previous model (pill box style). By 1907 the white summer cover had been ordered out of wear.

The Blue field service cap (wedge cap) worn by the Other Ranks was popular from about 1890 to 1905. In 1903 the Canadian Militia introduced khaki service dress but issues to 'rural' regiments was postponed due to budget so these regiments continued to wear the 'coloured' (read Scarlet/Blue/Green) uniforms. I would put this image at 1900-1905 as the Long Lee-Enfield had not yet been issued throughout the Militia yet.

my tuppence worth.

Clive

[Brian Wolfe]

I am coming to this very late but here are my two cents worth. The pattern forage cap shown (with large crown) was introduced into Canadian service in 1899 and was originally known as the Staff Pattern or Naval Pattern. By 1902 it had virtually relaced the previous model (pill box style). By 1907 the white summer cover had been ordered out of wear.

The Blue field service cap (wedge cap) worn by the Other Ranks was popular from about 1890 to 1905. In 1903 the Canadian Militia introduced khaki service dress but issues to 'rural' regiments was postponed due to budget so these regiments continued to wear the 'coloured' (read Scarlet/Blue/Green) uniforms. I would put this image at 1900-1905 as the Long Lee-Enfield had not yet been issued throughout the Militia yet.

my tuppence worth.

Clive

Many thanks Clive.

Regards

Brian

[Guest IMHF]

I don't think there is any doubt about the rifle being the Lee Metford Mk II or Mk II* (but that detail is not clear in the photos), however here is another close up view anyway.

Thanks again for any help you can give me.

Regards

Brian

This is a very nice photo the officer on the right looks like a Zombie becuse of his eyes

Lorenzo