Romania Romanian group of 9

[RobW]

To all,

Here is a nice Romanian group of 9 that I recently picked up. While the group has a certain level of wear, loss of enamel, and gilding loss on some of the medals I like it because it shows that the item was worn and displayed by its recipient.

* Order of the Star, Officer.

* Order of the Crown, Knight, gilt (possibly Lemaitre).

* Order of the Crown, Knight, silver.

* 25 Years' Military Service medal.

* Commemorative Medal for the Second Balkan War 1913.

* Commemorative Cross of the 1916-1918 War, ARDEAL, CARPATI, MARASESTI, BUCURESTI clasps.

* Medal for Manhood and Loyalty, variation with designer's name (F. PAWLIK F.E.C.) on obverse and maker's name (RESCH) on reverse.

* Official victory medal, with KRISTESKU designers name on the reverse.

* Medal for the Jubilee of Carol I, military version.

Of note is that it appears, to my untrained eye, that there are two different style of swords in between the arms of the Cross on the two Orders of the Crown. Would this indicate different manufacturers or just later design changes?

Not having any specific knowledge on Romanian medals could anybody assist in identifying the time period the two Orders were produced, and who was the likely manufacturer??

I would appreciate any and all opinions.

Regards,

Rob

Edited April 17, 2010 by RobW

[RobW]

And the reverse.

Regards,

Rob

[Carol I]

Of note is that it appears, to my untrained eye, that there are two different style of swords in between the arms of the Cross on the two Orders of the Crown. Would this indicate different manufacturers or just later design changes?

Not having any specific knowledge on Romanian medals could anybody assist in identifying the time period the two Orders were produced, and who was the likely manufacturer??

Hi Rob.

The small differences between the two crosses indicates most likely different manufacturers, not different designs. But it would be quite difficult to identify them as to my knowledge there is no systematic study of the different manufacturers of the Romanian orders. As to the period, both of them are WWI-related awards.

[RobW]

Hi Rob.

The small differences between the two crosses indicates most likely different manufacturers, not different designs. But it would be quite difficult to identify them as to my knowledge there is no systematic study of the different manufacturers of the Romanian orders. As to the period, both of them are WWI-related awards.

Hello Carol,

Thanks for the clarification and information. I had been told by the vendor that the group was dated circa 1940 so I was reasonably sure that with awards spanning from the Jubilee of Carol I period (1906), through the Second Balkan War 1913, Great War victory medal, and then the 25 Years' Military Service medal, that the time frame seemed correct for the early to mid 1930s to 1940.

I wasn't particularly looking for such a group but as luck would have it, when you aren't looking for items, they sometimes find you.

Is it normal practice to bend the bars over the ribbon on the Commemorative Cross of the 1916-1918 War, so that the ends cannot be seen or is this a medal mounting issue??

Regards,

Rob

Edited April 19, 2010 by RobW

[Ulsterman]

I don't know if this was "normal" practice for earlier Romanian bars, but i know that Austrian made Crusade medals were awarded/given with those "bent over" style bars.

Interesting-

[Kev in Deva]

Hi Gents,

I have seen numerous WW1 era Romanian War Cross battle-bars

applied in a rather sloppy manner.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2010/post-950-127169099503.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2010/post-950-127169100726.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2010/post-950-127169101749.jpg

Seems in some cases the bars were mounted to the ribbon after the Cross had been court-mounted simply by bending the bar to the shape of the ribbon.

Kevin in Deva. :cheers:

[Kev in Deva]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2010/post-950-127169117755.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2010/post-950-127169149447.jpg

What has caught my attention is the two Romanian Orders of the Crown, military virtue ribbon, same grade? as in the medals bars mounted for display in the Romanian Military Museum any with two awards of the same order have a gilt and silver look. Rob can you post a close-up of the two Orders of the Crown, hard to tell if one has some gilt remaining on the first pictures you attached.

Kevin in Deva. :cheers:

Edited April 19, 2010 by Kev in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Jeff,

The Romanian WW1 & WW2 battle bars were supposed to be bent over and then stiched in place to the ribbon, there were two "tabs" at the end of the bar with four small holes to be found on the bars for this purpose, it also prevents the bars fron sliding up and down on the ribbon.However in practice many were just bent around the ribbon as can be seen in surviving pictures from the period and in awarded pieces from that time.

The only other battle.bars to be found connected with Romanian awards are the

"Campaign 1913" bar for the "Faithful and True Medal" and a "TRADITIE" bar for the

1877 - 1878 "Crossing the Danube Cross" and a "PRO PATRIA" Bar for the King Carol Jubilee Medal aka "Carol on a Horse"

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[Carol I]

What has caught my attention is the two Romanian Orders of the Crown, military virtue ribbon, same grade? as in the medals bars mounted for display in the Romanian Military Museum any with two awards of the same order have a gilt and silver look. Rob can you post a close-up of the two Orders of the Crown, hard to tell if one has some gilt remaining on the first pictures you attached.

Now that you pointed it out, I took a closer look at the ribbons and the rosette of one of the Orders of the Crown of Romania is made out of the ribbon of the Order of the Star of Romania. Also, the material of the rosette appears to be newer than the ribbon. Is it an indication of an innocent later repair or of something more frightening?

[RobW]

What has caught my attention is the two Romanian Orders of the Crown, military virtue ribbon, same grade? as in the medals bars mounted for display in the Romanian Military Museum any with two awards of the same order have a gilt and silver look. Rob can you post a close-up of the two Orders of the Crown, hard to tell if one has some gilt remaining on the first pictures you attached.

Kevin in Deva.

Hello Kevin,

As far as I can recall the first of the two Orders of the Crown has traces of gilt on it with the second appearing to be tarnished silver. I shall post close-ups of the obverse/reverse of these two this evening when I have time.

Regards,

Rob

Edited April 19, 2010 by RobW

[RobW]

Now that you pointed it out, I took a closer look at the ribbons and the rosette of one of the Orders of the Crown of Romania is made out of the ribbon of the Order of the Star of Romania. Also, the material of the rosette appears to be newer than the ribbon. Is it an indication of an innocent later repair or of something more frightening?

Hello Carol,

I shall also post a close-up of the area of the two rosettes for you to compare. To me both rosettes appear to have equal and similar wear and rubbing on the high points. I also noted that there is a repair job evident near the base of the Crown on the Order of the Star. Would this be relevant?

Regards,

Rob

Edited April 20, 2010 by RobW

[RobW]

What has caught my attention is the two Romanian Orders of the Crown, military virtue ribbon, same grade? as in the medals bars mounted for display in the Romanian Military Museum any with two awards of the same order have a gilt and silver look. Rob can you post a close-up of the two Orders of the Crown, hard to tell if one has some gilt remaining on the first pictures you attached.

Kevin in Deva.

Hello Kevin,

Here are the close-ups. Pics of the reverse to follow.

Regards,

Rob

Edited April 20, 2010 by RobW

[RobW]

And the reverses.

Regards,

Rob

[RobW]

Now that you pointed it out, I took a closer look at the ribbons and the rosette of one of the Orders of the Crown of Romania is made out of the ribbon of the Order of the Star of Romania. Also, the material of the rosette appears to be newer than the ribbon. Is it an indication of an innocent later repair or of something more frightening?

Hello Carol,

Here is the close-up of the two rosettes.

Regards,

Rob

[Carol I]

Thanks for the image, Rob. It confirms the previous observations: both rosettes are made of the ribbon of the Order of the Star of Romania and the materials of the rosettes appear to be different from those of the ribbons. This indicates some sort of tampering that could date from the making of the bar or from a later repair, but also from a modification intended to deceive?

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Rob,

thanks for the close-ups, to my eyes the bar without ribbons has an overall similar look,with regards medal ribbon wear, and medal patina, the rosettes have differeant thread in the centres where they have been fixed to the ribbons, and might possibly have been added by some "monkey-fingers" as Rick would say, to boost its potential sale value.

Looking at the rear of the bar, I would tend to agree that one Order of the Crown was originaly gilted, the other in silver, its also common to find items on bars with damaged enamel and enamel repair as the Romanian method of mounting allowed items to swing freely and make contact with its neighbour.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

Edited April 20, 2010 by Kev in Deva

[RobW]

Thanks for the image, Rob. It confirms the previous observations: both rosettes are made of the ribbon of the Order of the Star of Romania and the materials of the rosettes appear to be different from those of the ribbons. This indicates some sort of tampering that could date from the making of the bar or from a later repair, but also from a modification intended to deceive?

Carol,

What would you suggest I do with the rosettes? Leave them on or remove them??

Regards,

Rob

[Kev in Deva]

Hi Rob,

Actually "if" original to the bar the ribbon colour beneath the rosettes would show it in my opinion, as there would be little fading.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[RobW]

Hi Rob,

Actually "if" original to the bar the ribbon colour beneath the rosettes would show it in my opinion, as there would be little fading.

Kevin in Deva.

Hello Kevin,

I have had a quick look underneath the rosettes and can't seem to see any differences in the ribbon, but then again that is just probably a result of age and my poor eyesight. I am also a bit loathe to pull or tug on the rosettes too strongly for fear of ripping them off.

Given the number of possible 'inconsistencies' with this bar I am considering sending it back to the vendor. I am, at this stage, not totally convinced that all the items on the bar are correct and 'above board'. I am not sure how often these types or bars appear on the market so it will need some pondering!

Thanks to all for the very handy and helpful clarifications.

Regards,

Rob

Edited April 22, 2010 by RobW

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Rob,

Another point not mentioned and evident from the rear of the bar

is the fact that the bar appears to have been lengthened to accomodate

the Romanian Order of the Star.

Is the Romanian Inter-Allied Victory Medal the official version?

I believe the "Manhood & Loyalty" medal is the version issued for the 1913 Balkan Campaign.

(I am not sure off the top of my head was the medal available for

the 1877 / 78 Independence War.)No swords on the ribbon ring or mounted to the medal itself.

Kevin in Deva :beer:

Edited April 22, 2010 by Kev in Deva

[RobW]

Hello Kevin,

I had noticed the extension to the back of the bar. My initial thoughts on this bar were that the Order of the Star was awarded at a later date to the other awards and hence the extension. Could this explain the possibly two original awards of different grades of the Order of the Crown?

I shall post pics of the vic and Manhood and Loyalty medal to follow.

Regards,

Rob

[RobW]

As for the vic; yes it is the official strike with the KRISTESKU mark on the reverse.

This to me is interesting because a large number of Romanian groups that I have seen pics of have one of the myriad of unofficial vics mounted. I like this specimen because it has very few scratches or marks and appears to be in very good shape considering the bar was probably made around the 1930-1940s.

Regards,

Rob

[RobW]

The Medal for Manhood and Loyalty is the variety that has the designers name (F. PAWLIK F.E.C) on the obverse and makers name (RESCH) on the reverse. With the limited information I have on Romanian medals and decorations that is, apparently a harder to find variation and it is usually seen in gilt.

I have seen other varieties that have minor obverse differences and smaller lettering on the reverse but none with the designers and makers names present. Happy for any information on the background of this medal.

Regards,

Rob

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Rob,

if you would care to take a look through the following thread:-

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=43144&st=0

It might give you an idea of the way Royal Romanian medal bars were arranged in the flesh so to speak.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[RobW]

Hello Kevin,

Thanks for the re-direct. A most illuminating thread. At this stage I'll be leaving the group as is; a bit of intrigue with a group is a good thing sometimes.

Regards,

Rob

Edited April 23, 2010 by RobW