Hastings Artillery sword

[5016]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post on the Sword & Edged Weapon Forum. Having read some of the old posts it is clear that a wealth of experience exists within your ranks. I wonder if you can assist please.....

I have only a few swords and nothing, I'm sure, of much interest. This post refers to a fairly standard Artillery pattern sword....I am however, struggling to find out much information about either the unit (as etched on the blade) - "HASTINGS ARTILLERY" or the maker. E. FARRA of Newgate Street, London.

I understand the unit is a Volunteer element of the many Cinque Port formations intended to defend against the perceived risk of invasion from the French during the post Napoleonic years. If anyone has any references to them I'd be most grateful. Presumably small in numbers and with relatively few officers, I'd like to find a picture or illustration of the their uniform.

I also couldn't find any other sword examples made by FARRA and wondered if anyone can say approx when this firm was making / selling swords, which will help date the sword.

Thanks in anticipation.

Kevin.

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Googling "Hastings volunteer artillery" using a Google book search brings up several results that may be of interest. The only problem with Google Books (books.google.com) is that some countries don't have the same access that we have in the States. Let me know if you have trouble finding results and I will see what I can do to help.

I can not find a reference for Farra, but I would guess that your sword dates 1860-80. Farra is probably a military tailor or some other sort of retailer, rather than a maker.

Jonathan

[Mervyn Mitton]

Kevin - anything to do with the cinque ports is interesting. Unfortunately, I can't really add anything on the sword - but the history of the Ports goes back to the 12th Century when the first Admiral was appointed. The Lord Warden is the highest honour the Queen can bestow - and to show it's importance - amongst the many distinguished holders have been Sir Winston Churchill and The Late Queen Mother. Most of the pictures from WW2 that show Churchill in uniform, he is wearing the official full dress of Lord Warden.

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Kevin,

Welcome to the Swords and Edged Weapons section. There is no such thing as an uninteresting sword.

I wish I could add more than "welcome" but I could not find anything in my reference books on this.

Thanks for posting an interesting sword and presenting the membership with a mystery.

Regards

Brian

[Satsuma]

Dear Kevin

Thanks for showing this sword - I agree with Brian: no such thing as an uninteresting sword, and you are blessed to possess it. I know nothing about it (being a Japanese sword specialist) but am fascinated to see how this post will pan out. It will start my education on swords British. Bring it on!

Satsuma

[Jonathan Hopkins]

How wide is the blade where it enters the guard?

[5016]

Thanks Guys for your suggestions and comments. I agree, no sword is without some merit. I guess what I meant is that the Artillery sword is a fairly common pattern however this particular ones merits are that it comes from a small and unusual unit. From what I've discovered already the Cinque Port militia artillery officers were often local , titled dignitaries.

My swords actual dimensions, as requested by Jonathan, are approx 23 m.m. width at the ricasso where the blade meets the guard. I appreciate this is quite narrow; more of a dress sword than a fighting sword perhaps?

Hi to Satsuma....I have some Japanese swords which I will list later. How are you on Hizen-to? I have a gem Shinto katana which turned up here on the Isle of Wight at an auction a few years ago. I'll post the oshigata for some "opinions".

I'm really enjoying this forum.

Regards,

Kevin.

[5016]

Thought I'd share this with you....in my research into the Hastings Artillery sword, I contacted the Hastings museum and was pleased to be directed towards a hand-written diary of a chap named BRETT who, circa 1860, wrote much about local events, including the activities of the militia.

On one page he refers to the Warden (see Mervyn's earlier comments) who at that time was Viscount Palmerston. Just as Mervyn indicates regarding Winston Churchill, here was another example of a former Prime Minister's association with the local artillery. So....you can begin to appreciate why I'm interested in my sword and its former owner - not that I'll ever know but I reckon he would have been someone of "substance".

[5016]

2nd attachment - hope it's not too "reduced" to be of use. I'll have to transcribe it one day!

Kevin

[Satsuma]

Hi Kevin

Yikes! Don't ask me questions that are too hard! However, I'll accept any challenge, when the time comes. Indeed, I look forward to your upcoming posts that feature the pieces you mention. (I always melt when I see a good sword - unless it's being used against me!)

Anyway, today I learned a new word - ricasso : a part of sword and knife blades; the section just above the guard or handle, sometimes unsharpened and unbevelled. I must use it in Scrabble next time.

Thanks

Satsuma

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Yes, at 23 mm your sword is a dress sword, and is often called a picquet or levee sword. A nice sword, and well done finding more information on the unit. Do you have any more British swords?

Jonathan

[5016]

Yes, at 23 mm your sword is a dress sword, and is often called a picquet or levee sword. A nice sword, and well done finding more information on the unit. Do you have any more British swords?

Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,

I have one other which I bought with the artillery sword, from the same source. It is a 1899 pattern cavalry troopers sword by Wilkinson. I was told by the seller that a relative carried it in WW1, so I was expecting a 1908 pattern. However, even when I eventually received it and challenged the sellers about the supposed history, he was insistant that it had been carried in WW1? Is that likely? I assumed by WW1 all 1899 patterns had been replaced.

The more closely I looked at it, the happier I became, even if the WW1 provenence was shakey. It is dated 1901 and on the guard it is stamped "13H". I believe that means issued to 13th Hussars and in 1901, indeed throughout the entire Boer War, the 13th were in South Africa. So, on the face of it, a sword highly likely to have seen service in the Boer War (and who knows, maybe in WW1 too?)

I'll take photos and upload later.

Kind regards,

Kevin.

[5016]

Here's a picture of the 1899, maker's stamp and unit stampings on guard (very hard to photograph as feint)

Kevin.

[Jonathan Hopkins]

During WWI some units were still equipped with the P1899, so the seller's story is plausible. Somewhere I have a period photo of a cavalry regiment with both P1899 and P1908 swords on display. If I can find it I will post it or message you. It is a very nice sword, indeed. It is the final trooper's patten to incorporate Reeve's patent solid hilt--a design element that began with the Pattern 1853 cavalry trooper's sword. Thank you for posting it!

Jonathan

[5016]

During WWI some units were still equipped with the P1899, so the seller's story is plausible. Somewhere I have a period photo of a cavalry regiment with both P1899 and P1908 swords on display. If I can find it I will post it or message you. It is a very nice sword, indeed. It is the final trooper's patten to incorporate Reeve's patent solid hilt--a design element that began with the Pattern 1853 cavalry trooper's sword. Thank you for posting it!

Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,

I'd like to see that photo, if you locate it please and also I tried your suggestion of Googling the books but they didn't show the articles

- just some crass message saying "where are the missing pages", with an explanation why they were not available. So, if possible, if you could copy / paste any tasty bits and show me, I'd be very grateful.

Regards,

Kevin.

[Mervyn Mitton]

The 1899 pattern cavalry sword was the last in that series and did not have the cut out Maltese cross on the guard. Like all of these slashing swords the weight caused an unbalance when at the 'Charge'. At a full gallop and bringing the sword down caused many of the troopers to literally fall out of the saddle. There is one recorded instance of an entire troop of some 25 men falling off during a charge in the Boer War. This lead to the Royal Commission which brought-in the 1908 .

When they brought in the 1908 it changed the entire tactics of a charge - since you were thrusting , not slashing. Several Regiments preferred to keep the older pattern and were allowed to do so - therefore , it is probable, as Jonathan says, that they were in use during the 1st.WW.. The 17th Lancers always preferred the 1853 pattern and carried well into the 20th C. - not sure when they stopped - perhaps they do still carry it for ceremonial duties. ( I think they are now the 17/21/5th Lancers)

[mmackenzie]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post on the Sword & Edged Weapon Forum. Having read some of the old posts it is clear that a wealth of experience exists within your ranks. I wonder if you can assist please.....

I have only a few swords and nothing, I'm sure, of much interest. This post refers to a fairly standard Artillery pattern sword....I am however, struggling to find out much information about either the unit (as etched on the blade) - "HASTINGS ARTILLERY" or the maker. E. FARRA of Newgate Street, London.

I understand the unit is a Volunteer element of the many Cinque Port formations intended to defend against the perceived risk of invasion from the French during the post Napoleonic years. If anyone has any references to them I'd be most grateful. Presumably small in numbers and with relatively few officers, I'd like to find a picture or illustration of the their uniform.

I also couldn't find any other sword examples made by FARRA and wondered if anyone can say approx when this firm was making / selling swords, which will help date the sword.

Thanks in anticipation.

Kevin.

Hello Kevin,

I am new to the forum as well and was hoping to find more information on a sword I had recently inherited form my grandfather. The history of the sword is unknown so I have been looking up information on the maker-also Farra of Newgate Street, London. You said you were looking for other examples made by Farra, here you go! Have you been able to find any more information?

Thanks again!

Mack

[mmackenzie]

Here is an additional Picture.

Mack

[Mervyn Mitton]

Hi - Mack. Welcome to GMIC. I think you will find that this is the 1845 British Infantry Officers Sword Pattern. It has the folding guard and was gilt. Jonathan is probably the best to help you with the maker - however, at that time there were many small shops and foundaries turning out swords. Gradually they went out of business as it became unlawful to carry a sword in public - for civilians that is - and became forgotten.

Did you say you were in NZ - check back into family history - it may have been originally in the Maori Wars ?

p.s. No - my mistake - you're in California. Any idea where your Grandfather obtained the sword. By the way - Newgate was one of the Original gates to the City of London and was the site of a prison. Not far from the Old Bailey.

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Mack,

Mervyn is spot on. It is a British Pattern 1845 Infantry Officer's Sword. The Pattern 1845 Infantry Officer's Sword is similar to its predecessor, the Pattern 1822, in that both patterns share the same hilt design--a brass "Gothic" hilt with folding inboard counterguard. The major difference between the P1822 and P1845 is the blade; the P1822 has a pipe back blade and the P1845 has a fullered blade. In 1854 the hinged inboard counter guard was discarded in favor of a permanently fixed guard, and thus the Pattern 1854 Infantry Officer's Sword. Despite the fact that the brass hilt was thought to be weak and inadequate, the Pattern 1822/45/54 swords remained in service for the vast majority of the Victorian period, and were not superseded by another pattern until 1895.

Since the hinged portion of the guard was discontinued in 1854 we can date your sword to the period 1845-54 (although some swords with hinged guards were still sold after 1854). Farra would have been a retailer of some sort--a tailor or military outfitter. At this point in time there were not that many makers in England. Mole and Wilkinson were the largest, with Pillin, Reeves, and others making up the remainder. Farra is not mentioned in Bezdek's Swords and Sword makers of England and Scotland nor the "Makers" section of www.oldswords.com.

If you can post a photo of the brass proof disc I can probably tell you who made the sword. Also, photos of the blade decoration would be useful. Are there any family crests or initials on the blade? The original sword knot is a very nice thing to have and the patent leather hilt liner is very rare! Well done!

Jonathan

Edited June 28, 2011 by Jonathan Hopkins