Home Service Helmet Plate

[paul w]

Can I have some opinions on the originality of this Home Service Helmet Plate please,cheers,

Paul

[paul w]

Back.

[QSAMIKE]

Looks good to me...... Post 1902 of course......

Mike

[paul w]

Cheers Mike.

[Stuart Bates]

K & K say that the centre plate had three short lugs to secure the centre to the back-plate and the longer central lug penetrated the helmet shell in conjunction with the two lugs on the back-plate itself. Wilkinson-Latham's booklet on the Home Service helmet does not address this at all.

So this plate conforms with K & K but don't make the error of trying to get the three periheral lugs through the shell. Paul, look at your Home Service Helmet thread and look especially at the horrific damage done to the cork where the arrangement you posted above has been attempted. You will also see the more usual 3 hole fixing on the helmet that Jamie posted.

I have three ORs plates one with only two lugs on the back-plate as it is a one piece plate to the RMLI. Another has the three lugs on the centre piercing the shell and none on the back-plate. The last is an arrangement as shown above but there is an almighty couple of holes to pass the pin through the 4 bottom lugs (no central lug) and it doesn't even go through one of the centre plate lugs which is recessed too far i.e. I believe it was never intended to penetrate the shell - the other such lug must have been forced through.

I certainly would not attempt to force the shorter centre lugs through the shell but secure externally with a separate pin.

It would appear that for this plate it should be secured to the shell with the two lugs on the back-plate and the central lug on the centre.

Let's hope someone can clarify all of this.

Stuart

Edited July 16, 2010 by Stuart Bates

[paul w]

Hi Stuart,theres evidence of at least two helmet plates being fixed on the helmet I have but it appears that only the two lugs on the helmet star were used as theres no central hole for the HPC lug to go through.That being the case I'll try to secure any plate I end up with using the lugs on the star only,cheers,

Paul

[Jamie770]

Hi Paul, As you know, there have been a lot of fake helmet plates produced over the last few years and identifying them can be quite difficult.

This plate looks good - it seems to have a patina of age and I think the design of the central castle is correct for use with a KC backplate. On earlier Essex centres the towers were wider apart and abutted the underside of the Sphinx plinth. However, until you hold it in your hand it will be impossible to finally decide one way or the other.

One method I usually use is to look at how the lugs are attached to the plate. On the genuine plates I have seen they form a butt soldered joint - if there is the presence of extended 'feet' to allow for a bigger soldered joint then I would treat the plate with caution. I attach a pic of a lug (from a modern police helmet plate) which shows the extended feet.

Regarding which lugs penetrate the helmet shell, I have seen many variances of this. I think it came down to who was attaching the helmet plates and their use of the most prominent lugs to accept the retaining pins / leather wedges.

Hope this is of some help.

[paul w]

Thanks for the information Jamie,I went for the plate in the end and I'm waiting for it to arrive.I'll post clearer pics when it does.Theres a return policy so I'll make a final decision on it when,like you say,its in the hand.Thanks for your help,

Paul

[paul w]

Hi guys,the helmet plate arrived and I've got to say I'm not convinced.The actual quality of the helmet star is a little suspect with what looks like cast marks around the recess for the helmet plate centre.One of the square holes in the star to take the lugs of the HPC is also so near the edge the border is just a thin strip which is also a little suspicious.The HPC itself also has no patina at all on the back and looks like it was made yesterday.Overall then,the star plate might be original but I doubt it and the HPC looks like a copy,any comments appreciated,cheers,

Paul

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[Jamie770]

Hi Paul,

From your more detailed photos, I'd probably have to agree that it doesn't look 'right'. I particularly don't like the lugs which are different from the normal style I would have expected to see.

If the seller offered a return guarantee, you will need to consider whether you will wish to use this.

[paul w]

Thanks for that Jamie,its going back tomorrow!Do you mean the lugs on the star plate or HPC? (or both)and do you have any pics of K/C helmet plates as examples?Cheers,

Paul

[Jamie770]

Hi Paul,

Unfortunately I don't currently have any KC OR's helmets in my collection.

However, I have in the past and I don't recall any which had this type of lug on the HP.

I attach a photo showing the normal arrangement - metal rod bent to form an eyelet with the two strands coming together to form a shaft which is butt soldered to the plate.

However, it is difficult to be too definative - there were probably several makers of helmets and plates and whenever you think you have found how something was definately done, another item will turn up which proves that variations existed!

Perhaps someone else will have come across this type of lug but, along with your other reservations, I would be suspicious of this plate.

[paul w]

Thanks for that Jamie,the plates been returned,a good one will turn up eventually,cheers,

Paul

[Stuart Bates]

Paul,

have you looked at Geoff Newman militaria? He has a good reputation and is a member of the Military Heraldry Society, as am I. He will chase a plate down for you if he hasn't anything in stock.

Stuart

[paul w]

Thanks Stuart,I've had some items off Geoff in the past,I'll look him up next time he's at Farnham,cheers,

Paul