BOER & BRITISH AMMO. 1899-1902

[Mervyn Mitton]

We have many military historians with-in our ranks - so, I am showing this photograph of Boer and British rifle ammunition in the hopes of stimulating a discussion on the merits of both rifles and their ammo.. Hart's Hill was also the scene of an important battle and a distinguished charge - also, worth a description . I think sometimes, that many of our members sit back and wait for the 'same' people to do all the work - then a quick glance and it's forgotten. PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG !

[QSAMIKE]

Hi Mervyn.....

The Boers towards the end of the war when they were short of supplies used to scrounge through British campsites and pickup dropped ammunition for their own use......

Mike

[Ian Shepherd]

We have many military historians with-in our ranks - so, I am showing this photograph of Boer and British rifle ammunition in the hopes of stimulating a discussion on the merits of both rifles and their ammo.. Hart's Hill was also the scene of an important battle and a distinguished charge - also, worth a description . I think sometimes, that many of our members sit back and wait for the 'same' people to do all the work - then a quick glance and it's forgotten. PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG !

Mervyn do you remember when I nearly brought Duban Airport to a standstill when they found one of these bullet paperweights that I bought of you in my luggage. Ian

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi Mervyn.....

The Boers towards the end of the war when they were short of supplies used to scrounge through British campsites and pickup dropped ammunition for their own use......

Mike

Jup indeed.... many Boers had to get rid of their Mausers and pick up 303s... and scrounging ammo dropped by the Brits was very well documented...

Here is a commercial British hunting dum dum, found on the colesburg battlefield...

[QSAMIKE]

Here are a couple of Mauser Rounds and DumDum's.......

The photo of the base is from one of the DumDum rounds.....

Mike

Edited July 13, 2011 by QSAMIKE

[Les]

Here are a couple of Mauser Rounds and DumDum's.......

The photo of the base is from one of the DumDum rounds.....

Mike

Mike,

The rounds in the photos you posted are rimmed. In 1888, the Germans introduced the so called "Commission rifle" which used 7.92 rimless rounds with a round nose bullet. In 1902, the "S" (Spitzer) or pointed round was introduced for military long arms.

If memory serves me correctly, weren't the weapons supplied through German sources to the Afrikaner Republics recent vintage military rifles, and not sporting or civilian weapons? If so, that would suggest rimmed rounds were not Mauser military rounds, but something else. I'll have to check my head stamp references when I can locate them.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Les

[QSAMIKE]

Hi Les.....

Take a look at this thread, it is where I obtained the rounds.....

Mike

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/44925-scottish-regiments-tobacco-tin/page__p__414885__fromsearch__1#entry414885

[Les]

Hi Les.....

Take a look at this thread, it is where I obtained the rounds.....

Mike

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/44925-scottish-regiments-tobacco-tin/page__p__414885__fromsearch__1#entry414885

I was referring to the rimmed rounds in post number 5. All of the ones in that post appear to be rimmed rounds, not rimless. The model 1895 7mm Mauser made for Spain used rimless 7x55mm ammunition. That indicates the rimmed rounds seen in post #5 are not Mauser military rounds.

I am not questioning where or when the rounds were found. I would caution against assuming something found at a battlefield location, dates to the specific time period of the battle. To use an analogy Mervyn would quickly understand, is the presence of a fingerprint can be used to show that someone was present in a specific location, but not necessarily when with absolute certainty. In the context of ammunition found at a Boer War battlefield, well over a century has passed, and no one can be certain in the intervening years since then and now, that the local land owner or someone else wasn't hunting or shooting on the land either to protect his flocks/herd, target practice on a dassie (a Hyrax or rock rabbit), etc.

[QSAMIKE]

I was referring to the rimmed rounds in post number 5. All of the ones in that post appear to be rimmed rounds, not rimless. The model 1895 7mm Mauser made for Spain used rimless 7x55mm ammunition. That indicates the rimmed rounds seen in post #5 are not Mauser military rounds.

I am not questioning where or when the rounds were found. I would caution against assuming something found at a battlefield location, dates to the specific time period of the battle. To use an analogy Mervyn would quickly understand, is the presence of a fingerprint can be used to show that someone was present in a specific location, but not necessarily when with absolute certainty. In the context of ammunition found at a Boer War battlefield, well over a century has passed, and no one can be certain in the intervening years since then and now, that the local land owner or someone else wasn't hunting or shooting on the land either to protect his flocks/herd, target practice on a dassie (a Hyrax or rock rabbit), etc.

Hi again Les.....

I understand what you mean by when and where...... The only thing that I can go by is the letter where they are mentioned and the post mark on the cover..... The man who wrote the letter was a few months later Killed in Action.......

Mike

[Chris Boonzaier]

If memory serves me correctly, weren't the weapons supplied through German sources to the Afrikaner Republics recent vintage military rifles, and not sporting or civilian weapons? If so, that would suggest rimmed rounds were not Mauser military rounds, but something else. I'll have to check my head stamp references when I can locate them.

Hi,

although officialy the "Boer Mauser" was in the majority... there were countless other rifles in use. Towards the end of the war, it was used less and less as ammunition became a problem.

best

Chris

[Mervyn Mitton]

How strange that nearly a year later, this has come back. I agree with you Les - great caution is always necessary with 'found' items. However, in the case of the one illustrated in the horrible plastic mould - the person found hundreds of them - he used to mount them like this and sell at markets - but pre 1994. Now Hart's Hill took place during the Siege of Ladysmith and was a major battle - it was also early in the War when the Boers had stockpiles of weaponry and ammo.

I am hoping that you can identify the period of the rimless bullets - but, never forget the Boers had plenty of Mausers in the 1st. Boer War of 1881.

The Mauser rifle was also equipped to take a bayonet - although the Boers (to my knowledge) never took delivery of them. A large batch with ZAR markings were found in Chile a few years .

The .303 was , of course, for the Lee Metford.

[QSAMIKE]

Here are a few more pictures.......

Mike

[Chris Boonzaier]

Those rimmed rounds look veeeeery much like 303.... can there be a bit of a mix up here?

Could it be that the 303 rounds had mauserlike stripper clips before the ones we know from WW1 and 2?

[QSAMIKE]

I think that I am going to have to go down to the display and dig them out again and take some new photos.......

Mike

OK will edit....... Just took some new pictures.......

The two on the left are supposed to be Mauser and the two on the right .303...... Along with the bottoms, note the Mauser is dated 1896.........

Edited July 13, 2011 by QSAMIKE

[Chris Boonzaier]

On 28.7.2010 at 22:56, Chris Boonzaier said:

 

 

Jup indeed.... many Boers had to get rid of their Mausers and pick up 303s... and scrounging ammo dropped by the Brits was very well documented...

 

Here is a commercial British hunting dum dum, found on the colesburg battlefield...

I was just reading something interesting.... apparently this is not a commercial bullet, it is a British Army one, called a "Tweedie bullet"