Robin Lumsden Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 Not military, but I think this is the best forum for it. Here's a puzzle box I just picked up. It dates from Arts & Crafts (c. 1900). The date refers to the accession of Richard III (I think). Question is............what is the coat of arms??? Any help appreciated! :cheers:
Robin Lumsden Posted August 9, 2010 Author Posted August 9, 2010 It's called a 'puzzle box' because the means of opening it is a puzzle. :speechless:
Robin Lumsden Posted August 9, 2010 Author Posted August 9, 2010 Answer to the puzzle? Just push these two 'secret buttons' simultaneously, and................
Robin Lumsden Posted August 9, 2010 Author Posted August 9, 2010 ...........Hey Presto! The box opens.
Robin Lumsden Posted August 9, 2010 Author Posted August 9, 2010 It's solid oak. So.............any ideas on the coat of arms?? :cheers:
Robin Lumsden Posted August 9, 2010 Author Posted August 9, 2010 A wee incentive............. The first person to positively identify the coat of arms, with some sort of evidence, gets this badge free gratis!
Chris Boonzaier Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 1483... the year martin Luther was born.... yet... the popes hat is at the top! Luther cuts away at catholic dogma.... only 3 reindeer instead of 8????? Lets assume these 3 are Dasher, Donner and Blitzen.... Where are Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet and Cupid? Does this mean that strong Lutheren faith will be martial (Dasher, Donner, Blitzen)? Will a laid back live and let live philosophy be replaced by a tyranny Leaning towards being Anti Gay (Dancer and Prancer), Anti Loose women (Vixen), against extra terrestrial (Comet) and against love (Cupid).... Did the pope kill the happy five... or did Luther wish them away? I think that lid may solve all of lifes riddles if interpreted right...... :ninja:
Robin Lumsden Posted August 9, 2010 Author Posted August 9, 2010 (edited) The box comes from York. Richard III was the son of a Duke of York. Maybe just coincidence. These Victorians liked their Gothic revival! Edited August 9, 2010 by Robin Lumsden
Chris Boonzaier Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 There are keys there... as in "this is the key!".... And they are under a crown.... NEXT to the reindeer... but under the pope... So... Under the influence of the pope, the British Monarch will be influenced to sett all gears in mothion, to find the key to Santas missing reindeer? Naaah... cant be.... Didnt the royals kill catholic priests back in those days...? And did British Santas even HAVE reindeer???? I think not..... This DOES become confusing...... :banger:
Robin Lumsden Posted August 9, 2010 Author Posted August 9, 2010 Didn't the royals kill Catholic priests back in those days...? They killed everyone they could lay their delicate little hands on, even other royals. The princes in the tower met their maker at the hands of this chap in 1483. Popular year, that one.
Paul L Murphy Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 I am pretty sure the hat indicates it is the arms of an Anglican bishop. The papal tiara or Catholic bishop's hat are depicted different in heraldry. The left hand side is possibly the coat of arms of his diocese, with the right hand side being his personal coat of arms. This is a common way of depicting arms for bishops and archbishops. If you can find a British town with the left hand coat of arms you might be pretty close.
Chris Boonzaier Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 I am pretty sure the hat indicates it is the arms of an Anglican bishop. The papal tiara or Catholic bishop's hat are depicted different in heraldry. The left hand side is possibly the coat of arms of his diocese, with the right hand side being his personal coat of arms. This is a common way of depicting arms for bishops and archbishops. If you can find a British town with the left hand coat of arms you might be pretty close. Are you trying to tell me....... there is no Santa? :shame:
Robin Lumsden Posted August 9, 2010 Author Posted August 9, 2010 I am pretty sure the hat indicates it is the arms of an Anglican bishop. The papal tiara or Catholic bishop's hat are depicted different in heraldry. The left hand side is possibly the coat of arms of his diocese, with the right hand side being his personal coat of arms. This is a common way of depicting arms for bishops and archbishops. If you can find a British town with the left hand coat of arms you might be pretty close. Thanks Paul. The 'hat' is definitely a mitre. (Not the triple crown, Chris!) I have already tried various combinations of church arms, and those of colleges and universities in England, with no success. I know a wee bit about heraldry (I actually designed the coat of arms shown below, under the guidance of the Lord Lyon) and I was beginning to wonder if the arms on the box might be some sort of imaginative contrivance. :banger:
army historian Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 1483... the year martin Luther was born.... yet... the popes hat is at the top! Luther cuts away at catholic dogma.... only 3 reindeer instead of 8????? Lets assume these 3 are Dasher, Donner and Blitzen.... Where are Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet and Cupid? Does this mean that strong Lutheren faith will be martial (Dasher, Donner, Blitzen)? Will a laid back live and let live philosophy be replaced by a tyranny Leaning towards being Anti Gay (Dancer and Prancer), Anti Loose women (Vixen), against extra terrestrial (Comet) and against love (Cupid).... Did the pope kill the happy five... or did Luther wish them away? I think that lid may solve all of lifes riddles if interpreted right...... Chris, I know nothing about the box except it looks nice, but I love your post. Cheers Captain Albert
Mike Dwyer Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 Robin, I'm taking a stab at this.............the keys and crown are/were the heraldic emblem of the Lord Chancellor. John Russell, who was the Bishop of Rochester (1476-1480), and then Bishop of Lincoln (1480-1494), was also Lord Chancellor and he died in 1494. He accepted the office of Lord Chancellor from Richard III on 13 May 1483. I'm guessing that these are his arms showing the office of Lord Chancellor and either his personal arms, or his arms as the bishop of Lincoln.
Robin Lumsden Posted August 11, 2010 Author Posted August 11, 2010 Robin, I'm taking a stab at this.............the keys and crown are/were the heraldic emblem of the Lord Chancellor. John Russell, who was the Bishop of Rochester (1476-1480), and then Bishop of Lincoln (1480-1494), was also Lord Chancellor and he died in 1494. He accepted the office of Lord Chancellor from Richard III on 13 May 1483. I'm guessing that these are his arms showing the office of Lord Chancellor and either his personal arms, or his arms as the bishop of Lincoln. Mike. Thanks for that information. You could be right...............if no-one else comes up with anything more concrete, the eagle badge is yours. What I'm really after is another illustration from somewhere showing the same coat of arms, with a positive identification. Thanks again. :cheers:
Mike Dwyer Posted August 11, 2010 Posted August 11, 2010 Mike. Thanks for that information. You could be right...............if no-one else comes up with anything more concrete, the eagle badge is yours. What I'm really after is another illustration from somewhere showing the same coat of arms, with a positive identification. Thanks again. I tried and tried to see if I could find John Russell's arms, but no luck. I have a feeling those arms are his personal arms and not the arms of his diocese. I did find an illustration of the arms of the Lord Chancellor, so I know I'm right on that half at least! If it's okay with you, I don't really need the badge. I don't collect Third Reich stuff and I'm sure you could put it to greater use.
Robin Lumsden Posted August 11, 2010 Author Posted August 11, 2010 If it's okay with you, I don't really need the badge. I don't collect Third Reich stuff and I'm sure you could put it to greater use. Thanks Mike! :cheers:
Robin Lumsden Posted August 11, 2010 Author Posted August 11, 2010 Mike. This photo shows the coat of arms of the See of York. Now I might be getting somewhere..................
Robin Lumsden Posted August 11, 2010 Author Posted August 11, 2010 I solved it! It's the coat of arms of Thomas Rotherham, Archbishop of York in 1483. Here he is. See..........the three stags device was his personal arms.
Robin Lumsden Posted August 11, 2010 Author Posted August 11, 2010 Funnily enough, he also held the office of Lord Chancellor............... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Rotherham
Robin Lumsden Posted August 11, 2010 Author Posted August 11, 2010 Correction.......... These are the arms of Rotherham Grammar School, founded by Archbishop Thomas Rotherham in 1483. Here's the evidence................ http://www.rotherhamunofficial.co.uk/history/rotherham-grammar-school/index.html
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