Mystery Coat of Arms

[Robin Lumsden]

So.............another little puzzle solved.

Case closed! :cheeky:

Edited August 11, 2010 by Robin Lumsden

[Chris Boonzaier]

Still preferred my solution..... :whistle:

[Robin Lumsden]

Still preferred my solution.....

So did I. :rolleyes:

[Mike Dwyer]

Correction..........

These are the arms of Rotherham Grammar School, founded by Archbishop Thomas Rotherham in 1483.

Here's the evidence................

http://www.rotherhamunofficial.co.uk/history/rotherham-grammar-school/index.html

If what I found is correct, and the crossed keys and crown are also the arms of the Lord Chancellor's Office, I wonder how they also became the arms of the see of York?

Edited August 11, 2010 by Mike Dwyer

[Arthur R]

Hi

These are the arms of Thomas Rother(h)am, Archbishop of York 1480-83. The crown and keys (gold on red) are the arms of the archdiocese, the three stags (silver on green) his personal arms.

Evidence to support this:

-

[Robin Lumsden]

Hi

These are the arms of Thomas Rother(h)am, Archbishop of York 1480-83. The crown and keys (gold on red) are the arms of the archdiocese, the three stags (silver on green) his personal arms.

Evidence to support this:

-

Hello Arthur.

These appear to be the school arms, not the Archbishop's. See here..............

http://rgsoba.com/

[Mike Dwyer]

I'm afraid I may have jumped to the wrong conclusion concerning the Lord Chancellor's arms. When I was searching for the arms in this post I came across a picture of the arms of Thomas Cardinal Wolsey and one half was the same crown and crossed keys. I presumed they were the arms of his office of Lord Chancellor. I looked again today, and they were his arms when he was archbishop of York!

Robin, I believe you are quite correct, the arms with the three stags is a personal coat of arms, not the arms of a diocese. Bishops arms are normally half the arms of their see and half their personal arms. In the painting you found, it only shows the arms with the three stags which would, normally, be the subject's personal arms. However, if they are his personal arms, then the arms of the school you showed are actually his arms while archbishop of York because they consist of the arms of the see and his personal arms. It appears the school just "borrowed" his arms and have used them ever since. Not proper heraldic usage, but it happens all the time.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Mike Dwyer

[Mervyn Mitton]

Sorry to be a 'party pooper' - but, I think there may be another possibility. The first question that has to be asked is - why should an obscure prelate from over 500 years ago have his arms on a box dating from the late 19th. Century ? Usually, it is because of a link to something they founded - in this case the school that has been mentioned. However, Lincoln College in Oxford is the third oldest University College and I think it far more likely that the box was carved for a college graduate as a gift. The College Arms are directly from the Lincoln Diocese - as is shown by the Mitre. The three stags are only for this original grant - all other stags are shown as heads - either with flesh or, as skulls.

See what you think ?

[Mervyn Mitton]

The College was founded in 1427 by the Bishop of Lincoln

Edited August 12, 2010 by Mervyn Mitton

[Graham Stewart]

Or try this website for possible clarification;-

http://www.ngw.nl/

[Robin Lumsden]

It appears the school just "borrowed" his arms and have used them ever since. Not proper heraldic usage, but it happens all the time.

Very likely.

The current incarnation of the school, now a 'college', also uses them!

[Macrae]

Heraldry Symbolism

Crown = Royal or seigniorial authority

Keys = Guardianship and dominion

Mitre = (Bishop's) Authority

Deer = One who will not fight unless provoked; peace and harmony

Dan

[Robin Lumsden]

Thanks to everyone for their input.

My take on this thing (so far) is..............

1. Thomas Rotherham founded the Jesus College in Rotherham in 1483 (later named after him).

2. His personal coat of arms was the one with the three stags.

3. The arms of his archdiocese (York) was the crown over the keys.

4. The school/college arms combine these two aspects, with the addition of the mitre. Some renditions of the school arms also included a motto and the date '1483'. These can be seen on the links I provided earlier.

5. Puzzle boxes were popular novelties made by those in the British 'Arts & Crafts' movement c. 1890-1910. (Similar to the earlier 'puzzle jugs').

6. I think this oak box was probably made for an 'old boy' of the school/college, as a novelty desk ornament and conversation piece. Either on commission, or for presentation to him. The carving is really first rate. To me, it really embodies everything that's best about the Arts & Crafts movement and the Gothic Revival of the time.

Thanks again, chaps.

PS - I'm well into this Gothic Revival stuff. Here's the sort of thing I mean......a Burne-Jones tapestry.

[Robin Lumsden]

Closer detail..............

[Robin Lumsden]

Gothic Revival extends to my place of abode............... :whistle: