Austria-Hungary My new Austrian bar

[Richarddwh]

I recently acquired this bar, at €50 I thought it was a decent price. I've dipping my to in to Austro-Hungarian waters for a couple of years, but I don't recognise the medal on the right. Can someone put me out of my misery? Apologies of the duff photos!

[trakkles]

carl war cross 1918; not institueted, only projected. 2 different kind of typs (trialpieces)

look at current HD Rauch auction Lot D319

regards Trakkles

[Richarddwh]

Trakkles,

Thank you for your help and the link the auction catalogue, it is worth me saving and printing as I've struggled to find any affordable books on the subject, I plan to get Mericka's book at some point. I'm quite shocked by the price of the medal, €250 for that medal alone makes the bar a bargain.

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

if original, it's a rare, never introduced decoration, although specimens exist.

Try to check if it's made of soft metal (like a tin alloy) or of "Kriegsmetall" (the usual war metal as used to make the Karl-Truppenkreuze).

From what I can see in the pictures, the ribbon is modern.

Best wishes,

Elmar Lang

P.S.: Buying Mericka's book would be an excellent idea, but consider also to get "Oesterreichs Orden" (Graz, Adeva, 1996), an extremely fine work too, that updates the "age" of Mericka's work.

Edited October 17, 2010 by Elmar Lang

[Richarddwh]

Elmar,

I will look in to 'Oesterreichs Orden' as I really need a good book for guidance.

Initially the ribbon did not concern me( though I didn't recognise it )as it looked and felt genuinely worn, the type of wear I've seen on Karl Troop cross ribbons and bravery medal ribbons. Though I will take a closer look. Is it the correct appearance for the ribbon that goes with this cross, and try and post some better photos.

I would say the metal is similar to that used for the Karl Troop cross which I took to be zinc on the account of the zinc pest which seems to afflict so many. I am tempted to say the chances of it being bad are far greater than it being good, but I hope my natural scepticism is unfounded.

[Richarddwh]

Some more photos, the last two were unfortunately not taken in natural light. Upon closer inspection I am unsure of the metal type, though it is not a soft metal.

[Richarddwh]

A closer look at the ribbon. Are there any other online sources of information regarding this award?

Edited October 17, 2010 by Richarddwh

[Tim B]

I'm not knowledgeable on Austrian bars, so please take my question here simply as a part of gaining more knowledge about these pieces.

Is it normal for a bar to have the Austrian Commemorative without swords (ie: non-combattant) and the Hungarian Commemorative with swords (combattant) on the same bar? The Austrian ribbon does not show any holes where the swords might have been attached, so..?

Tim

[hunyadi]

The Hungarian award was for anyone who severed in a military capacity. The award without swirds was generally for individuals who served as nurses, doctors, fund raisers, etc... in the rear escelons or at home. There is a big gray area with who got the non combat or combat awards. I would guess that this bar was to a HQ officer who was near the front lines looking over maps and typing out orders for the men. But I suspect the Karl war cross...

[Richarddwh]

I seldom see the Hungarian non combatant medals they certainly seem few and far between compared to the combatant version with swords.

Hunyadi, any reason why you doubt the Karl War Cross is it simply because percentage wise it is more likely than not to be a copy or due to something that could you elaborate on. I wonder if it has been widely copied, is the ribbon even the correct design?

I am certainly not going to convince myself something is good if there is good reason to doubt it.

[Iver]

i think its a copy.. look at those "bubbles" on the cross...

[hunyadi]

I also dont like the bubbles and the lack of detail. Though the only example that I know of is published in a book and it is well worn. I will say that while I lived in Hungary there were many of these examples to be had and they were of the similar quality and consturction and were being sold as copies for about $25. The ribbon also looks like new old stock that was fabricated into a trifold. Can you show us a more detailed shot of the reverse and how the bar is put together? IE the sewing?

Edited October 25, 2010 by hunyadi

[Richarddwh]

Thanks gents for the comments. A couple more pics, there a lot of raised bubbles, both sides. I presuming this, if fake, would have been cast. If so, would there are not be pitting opposed to bubbling? However, the fact that there have been openly sold copies of is not encouraging. At least the other medals appear good.

[Richarddwh]

The ribbons have been sewen together with light blue cotton. It is evident from the top photo that two hooks, probably removed from a couple of tri fold ribbons have been sewn at each end to act as the fastener to a uniform. Tellingly despite both hooks being rusty there is no discolouration on the ribbons themselves.

I am tempted to quarantine this bar for a few months and then separate the medals out. I would never normally do this, but if it is a put together ensemble it doesn't warrant its current appearance.

[hunyadi]

Yes - at this point I would certainly classify it as a bar that was assembled, the placement of the ribbons overlapping in such a manner is aslo very odd. I would also expect some discoloration to the thread on the rusty hooks as well. After looking at it again the age of the ribbons is also off and not uniform. Regardless - if you paid only 50 euro for the bar you still did pretty good.

The war cross is also a cast copy with the detailed shots in my opinion.