US Cavalry Colonel

[christerd]

A new photo in my collection. Pic is sellers from the auction , big and very sharp pic of a Cavalry Colonel , but what unit ?

Anybody out there who know Us Uniform insigna, and what medals does he got ?

I´m used to id Imperial German ones but here I´m completely lost

Christer

[GRA]

Hello Christer!

I'm not 100% certain, but I think he belongs to SHAEF (Supreme HQ in Europe) according to the patch, he was a career officer and in the army before the war (the light-coloured ribbon next to his index finger, you had to be serving on Dec. 7th, 1941 to get one), the top ribbons I believe are the Legion of Merit and the Bronze Star. It has to be a post-war photo since he's wearing the Victory Medal (2nd last) and the Army of Occupation Medal (last), and somewhere he ought to have the campaign medal for Europe (probably under his hand). The stripes I think denote 6 x 0,5 year of overseas service. By his rank and age, I'd say he went to war heading a squadron-sized unit (~battalion), or already was assigned to a higher HQ. I hope I have helped you some, I'm not 100% on this, but I'm sure there's someone on the forum who can provide more accurate information. By the way, this man is probably possible to ID, there cannot have been many of his rank and branch around, and he might even have been made general before retiring.

/Jonas

Edited November 12, 2010 by GRA

[christerd]

:jumping:

Thanks Jonas, det was quick ! Now I know a lot more of this officer , maybe there are some other US specialists out there who can Id him ?

Jonas and thanks again

Christer

[GRA]

Hello Christer!

If someone knows when the Victory medal and the Army of Occupation Medal were first issued, you might be able to get an earliest date of this photo.

/Jonas

[Ulsterman]

Ww2 Victory medals were given out starting @ later in 1945. The occupation medal I thought was authorized in 1947 (although the earlier version was worn chronologically (after the Ww1 campaign medal) so this denotes post WW2 service. The European campaign medal seems to be the one next to the "old army" medal, which means there is probably a US campaign medal on the rack behind the hand.

If he didn't retire a brigadier I'd be surprised.

Note the ring. Is that a class ring?

[GRA]

Hello Ulsterman!

Wouldn't there be some campaign stars / arrowheads or some such on the European Campaign ribbon? I assume that the colonel ought to have at least a campaign star or two, since he also got a Bronze Star, which I believe is awarded for "hands-on service" and not for mere paper pushing at HQ. Which is the correct order of wear for the pre-1941 service, US service and the various campaign medals? What are the two ribbons missing (I assume his ribbon bar is a "2-3-3")?

/Jonas

[Hugh]

Hello Ulsterman!

Wouldn't there be some campaign stars / arrowheads or some such on the European Campaign ribbon? I assume that the colonel ought to have at least a campaign star or two, since he also got a Bronze Star, which I believe is awarded for "hands-on service" and not for mere paper pushing at HQ. Which is the correct order of wear for the pre-1941 service, US service and the various campaign medals? What are the two ribbons missing (I assume his ribbon bar is a "2-3-3")?

/Jonas

Some speculation, supported by the occasional fact:

His Bronze Star does not have the Combat "V", which suggests that it was not for personal gallantry. I know that during Viet Nam, the BS was awarded for performance in staff jobs (like an "end of tour" award), so this may have been similar. Might not even been during WW II, although that seems unlikely.

If it's a 2-3-3 rack, there's room before the American Defense Service Medal (the pre- WW II one) for another individual decoration. (I'm assuming he didn't get any earlier service / campaign medal.) This could be a Purple Heart, an Army Commendation or even an Army Good Conduct, if he had prior enlisted service.

I'm speculating that the first (visible) campaign medal is the American Campaign Medal (the blue one), which normally wouldn't have arrowheads, stars, etc. for an Army officer. I believe his hand is hiding the Europe - Africa - Mideast Campaign ribbon (Green / brown), which is where the arrowheads, stars, etc. would be more likely to show up.

And, yes, that could easily be a West Point ring.

Best,

Hugh

Edited November 15, 2010 by Hugh

[GRA]

Thanks Hugh! As I mentioned, I'm no oracle at this, and some of the deeper details as to entitlement to a ribbon device are still fuzzy to me. One learns something new each day in this hobby!

/Jonas

[christerd]

Thanks all for your help with this photo

I searched the net for SHAEF but could only find some info, there was 1495 US officers i April 1945, the question is, if this pic is from 1946-47 Was he Colonel in 1945 ?

I found some Colonels at SHAEF 1944-45

Dan Gilmer Howard A Malin Emil C Boehnke Charles H Wilson

Ford Trimble Wilbur S Elliot Alan B Jacobs

Carter Burgess Walter C Pew John B Sherman

J.B. Moore E.K Clark F. E Frazer

Now I have to search theese names to se if anyone match the photo

Christer

[W McSwiggan]

I too noticed the class ring & SHAEF patch.

Going under the assumption that the photo is period 1942-45 & the ring is a West Point Class Ring & that the colonel was a colonel and hence on your list of SHAEF colonels, I decided to cross reference with the Register of Graduates.

Bottom line up front - if all assumptions are true, your colonel is not on that list.

Wilbur S Elliot

Dan Gilmer

Howard A Malin

John B Sherman

Ford Trimble

were all graduates but decorations and or branch match up for none of them.

The remaining named colonels were not West Pointers so either they are not he or his ring is not a West Point ring.

Thanks all for your help with this photo

I searched the net for SHAEF but could only find some info, there was 1495 US officers i April 1945, the question is, if this pic is from 1946-47 Was he Colonel in 1945 ?

I found some Colonels at SHAEF 1944-45

Dan Gilmer Howard A Malin Emil C Boehnke Charles H Wilson

Ford Trimble Wilbur S Elliot Alan B Jacobs

Carter Burgess Walter C Pew John B Sherman

J.B. Moore E.K Clark F. E Frazer

Now I have to search theese names to se if anyone match the photo

Christer

[christerd]

:jumping:

Aha , Then I can cross out some candidates !

The search goes on

Big Thank you

Christer

Edited November 15, 2010 by christerd

[W McSwiggan]

Christer,

While this may go without saying - I'm never short on words so I will say it!

I still feel that the class ring so prominently displayed in the photo is most likely a West Point ring.

If I am correct - this leaves the strong possibility that your list is incomplete or that our colonel served with SHAEF either in a lower grade or immediately post-war. Given the Cavalry Brass, Colonel's insignia and the SHAEF patch in the "Current Assignment" position I suspect that you have either a post-war or retirement picture on your hands.

His decorations are consistent with either a Lieutenant Colonel or even a "high flying" Major.

Regards

Wayne

[Ulsterman]

Hmmmmm... I love photos like this.

Given his age and that he has the medals we can see a couple of things are almost certain:

1. He is supposed to have the American campaign ribbon, because it was authorized for wear to anyone who served 6 months in the American theater AND then went overseas; it's probably behind his hand AND

2. I would be VERY surprised if that ribbon before the "old army" ribbon wasn't a WW1 campaign medal. That might suppose the Purple Heart was of Ww1 vintage. Why? Because cavalry was HEAVILY officered by old cadre regulars. If that's a West Point ring and he graduated in say, 1920 he'd be at 25 years which is just about right for bird Colonel AFTER WW2. (Before WW2 you were lucky to make Major after 25 years).

The bronze star was later awarded for combat service to anyone who had the CBI/CMB @ 1947 (they changed the regulations as part of a veterans' inspired political lobbying effort) and a lot of officers wore both, but some did not. The V was instituted in December, 1945 to distinguish bronze stars for valour from those for "merit"-which included the 'in combat' awards. Converted CBI/CMB bronze stars were NOT authorized the "V".

Campaign stars were supposed to be worn, but I have seen LOTs of uniforms and photos of officers not wearing them. They got caught on wool overcoats (worn often in winter Germany) and got ripped off.

The photo MUST date from- at the earliest- 1945 no matter what because that's when they actually started handing out the WW2 victory medal.

The medals I see are:

top: purple heart/ bronze star

middle: ?/American defense ("Old army")/European campaign

bottom: ?/WW2 victory/Occupation

GREAT discussion!!!

[Hugh]

Hmmmmm... I love photos like this.

Given his age and that he has the medals we can see a couple of things are almost certain:

1. He is supposed to have the American campaign ribbon, because it was authorized for wear to anyone who served 6 months in the American theater AND then went overseas; it's probably behind his hand AND

2. I would be VERY surprised if that ribbon before the "old army" ribbon wasn't a WW1 campaign medal. That might suppose the Purple Heart was of Ww1 vintage. Why? Because cavalry was HEAVILY officered by old cadre regulars. If that's a West Point ring and he graduated in say, 1920 he'd be at 25 years which is just about right for bird Colonel AFTER WW2. (Before WW2 you were lucky to make Major after 25 years).

The bronze star was later awarded for combat service to anyone who had the CBI/CMB @ 1947 (they changed the regulations as part of a veterans' inspired political lobbying effort) and a lot of officers wore both, but some did not. The V was instituted in December, 1945 to distinguish bronze stars for valour from those for "merit"-which included the 'in combat' awards. Converted CBI/CMB bronze stars were NOT authorized the "V".

Campaign stars were supposed to be worn, but I have seen LOTs of uniforms and photos of officers not wearing them. They got caught on wool overcoats (worn often in winter Germany) and got ripped off.

The photo MUST date from- at the earliest- 1945 no matter what because that's when they actually started handing out the WW2 victory medal.

The medals I see are:

top: purple heart/ bronze star

middle: ?/American defense ("Old army")/European campaign

bottom: ?/WW2 victory/Occupation

GREAT discussion!!!

Just to stir the pot - I respectfully disagree with your take on the ribbons. Bronze Star takes precedence over Purple Heart,, so I assess the first ribbon as Legion of Merit (which also could have had a "V", but doesn't). A career officer like this wouldn't have made that mistake.

I'd bet a small amount of money on the last ribbon in row 2 being American Campaign, leaving the 1st ribbon, 3rd row (not visible) as European campaign. That's the normal order for most Army officers. (But not always)

That still leaves the 1st ribbon, 2nd row as a mystery, as I mentioned earlier. World War I Campaign? Let's assume that he was 18 in 1918 (prior enlisted service), and 45 in 1945. Certainly possible.

[Ulsterman]

OK- Hugh- you have convinced me-after squinting with a magnifying glass #1 is definitely a Legion of Merit and the dark stripes with the shading on the proper sides make #5 an American campaign....ergo #6 would have to be an European campaign, as you say (because of the 6 overseas stripes- and note NO WW1 stripes).

[Hugh]

OK- Hugh- you have convinced me-after squinting with a magnifying glass #1 is definitely a Legion of Merit and the dark stripes with the shading on the proper sides make #5 an American campaign....ergo #6 would have to be an European campaign, as you say.

If he would only move his hand a little to the left, we'd have this whole thing figured out!

Hugh

[W McSwiggan]

Hi Hugh - isn't this fun?

Point of correction - the Army did not/does not issue the Legion of Merit with "V" device.

This award is strictly for meritorious service or achievement.

"V" devices on all Army decorations are reserved for heroism.

The Department of the Navy takes a different tack and uses the "V" to denote "In Theater during combat operations" - not implying either direct combat or heroism.

Hence our mystery bird could actually be wearing a Legion of Merit for service in Europe, in the Continental US or even a (highly unlikely) pre-war peace time award.

Regards

wem

Just to stir the pot - I respectfully disagree with your take on the ribbons. Bronze Star takes precedence over Purple Heart,, so I assess the first ribbon as Legion of Merit (which also could have had a "V", but doesn't). A career officer like this wouldn't have made that mistake.

I'd bet a small amount of money on the last ribbon in row 2 being American Campaign, leaving the 1st ribbon, 3rd row (not visible) as European campaign. That's the normal order for most Army officers. (But not always)

That still leaves the 1st ribbon, 2nd row as a mystery, as I mentioned earlier. World War I Campaign? Let's assume that he was 18 in 1918 (prior enlisted service), and 45 in 1945. Certainly possible.

Edited November 16, 2010 by W McSwiggan

[IrishGunner]

Great detective work on the ribbons, guys; I was ready to jump in that the first one is a Legion of Merit, but Hugh caught that one. However, I really don't think there are any WWI ribbons hidden here; also he has 6 Overseas Bars - 3 years service outside the US during wartime. So, I think that limits him to WW2 and I think we have to stay looking to the WW2 and possibly post-WW2 period for awards. Mainly, because I think this picture could even go into the late 40s or early 50s period and Wayne might be right that it's a retirement photo.

The patch is definitely the SHAEF patch; but that headquarters was dissolved in July 1945. However, the patch continued. First as as US forces became USFET - US Forces European Theater in 1945, then becoming EUCOM - European Command in 1947 - finally in 1952 US Army Europe - USAREUR - retaining the SHAEF patch as it's SSI; which it in fact, remains as the USAREUR SSI even today. So, our colonel's picture could have even been taken after 1952 - and still have that patch. I wish we could see his right shoulder to see if there is a combat patch.

I'm also certain - as others have said - that the ring is a West Point class ring; while still not conclusive, West Pointer's wear their class rings on the left hand as a rule - often with or without wedding rings. While not certainly a guarantee, other universities tend (though I'm sure not always) wear this type ring on the right finger. The almost visible engraving on the sides suggest a class ring over some type of jewelry signet ring. And the cavalry connection - with the embroidery insignia, especially the eagles that look almost bullion - smell of Old Army. As others also have stated.

I guess I am only trying to say, don't limit yourself to SHAEF rosters; because it's equally likely - if not more - that he's serving in one of the later HQs. Nonetheless, if you want to try and ask some old SHAEF vets, they have a website: http://www.shaef.org/index.html

[Hugh]

Hi Hugh - isn't this fun?

Point of correction - the Army did not/does not issue the Legion of Merit with "V" device.

This award is strictly for meritorious service or achievement.

"V" devices on all Army decorations are reserved for heroism.

The Department of the Navy takes a different tack and uses the "V" to denote "In Theater during combat operations" - not implying either direct combat or heroism.

Hence our mystery bird could actually be wearing a Legion of Merit for service in Europe, in the Continental US or even a (highly unlikely) pre-war peace time award.

Regards

wem

Aha! My Navy background led me astray. The only LOM I can remember seeing with a "V" was to an officer who helped sink a U-boat. Thanks for the correction.

[christerd]

Thanks all for the interesting discussion

I will mail the pic to the SHAEF Vet site and see if can get some info there , I´ll keep you updated

Here is a better scan EPSON) of the medals and ring

Christer

Edited November 18, 2010 by christerd

[Long Thrust VI]

Please know the background color of the SHAEF patch was black. Background color of the USAEUR patch is blue.