French Briquet

[Douglas Jr.]

Hi

I'm not a sword/blades guy, so I know nothing about this stuff. I also posted this on the French Militaria forum but I didn't have any feedback. So let me try here...

A friend of mine requested some help in order to identify and date correctly tis piece.

As far as I know it it a French Infantry Briquet. However, what's the model? From what age? What doe the marks mean?

The numbers I'm assuming are serial/inventory numbers.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Douglas.

[Douglas Jr.]

No one?

Not even a clue?

[Mervyn Mitton]

Hi - Douglas. Hope all is well ? This particular weapon is of the type designated as a short sidearm. It is almost identical to the British Constabulary sword of the early 1800's and which originated in the middle 18th Century to give horseman a shorter sword to guard against highwaymen.

I would think similar usage for the French and also as a military weapon where space is limited. Waggon driver's, bandsmen etc.. I am not an expert on French weapons and it may well have also been issued to some Infantry units - although sword bayonets would be the expected edged weapon.

The larger numbers are Armoury numbers for unit identification. With two different numbers on the hilt it would appear to have been re-issued on occasion. Also, it has been separated from the original scabbard - this happened frequently in the armouries when they were cleaning the weapons.

The other marks are proof marks from the original arsenals or, factories. You should be able to look these up on Google.

Hope this helps a little - please bear in mind that in French usage there may be differences.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Mervyn Mitton

[Douglas Jr.]

Mervyn,

I knew it had to be you to give some advise!

I'm doing fine, thanks!

I've tried to locate a source in the Net to identify the markings not to avail until now.

greetings,

Douglas.

[Jonathan Hopkins]

I do not know much about French swords or briquets in general. I do know that they were not meant for mounted troops. They were issued to the infantry, and were used throughout the 19th century by many European countries. Here is some information on French poincons (the small round stamps found on French swords):

http://klingenthal.chez.com/presentation_marquages.htm

Having posted that information, I am not sure that your briquet is French. You may want to have a look through the various examples at OldSwords.com to see if you can find any matches. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Jonathan

[Douglas Jr.]

Thanks Jonathan!

[Odulf]

A similar weapon, with brass handle and leather scabbart with brass fittings was used in the 19th Century by the Dutch Fleet and Marines; known as: Scheepssabel No.1 & 2 (M.1818).

[terry1956]

hi. I have a french briquet dated 1814. on the rear edge of the blade. along with the date is the Du Kilinoenthal name engraved with a few words in front i can,t make out.following on from the Du Kilnoenthal name is the Juillet 1814 date. Also on the flat of blade are stamped the letters L, B and one i can,t make out. and on the handle are also to be found the letters B with a little mark on top. a normal B and then FT and a further mark which looks like a capital I but is not, all the stamps are made with the little round stamps used by inspectors. the number 200 is also to be found on the handle guard.

I also have a later briquet of the same design, this one however is not so well made, a bit thiner in the handle, lighter then the marked briquet and with a slightly thiner blade. there are no markings on the blade at all, and just a small stamp on the guard which looks like a B. It is not so nice to handle as the napoleonic item and i think is later in date. yuou can see both in the pics below, sorry for the poor images. michael

the 1814 item is on the top of the pair in the picture.

[Mervyn Mitton]

As we said earlier, the French markings are sometimes difficult to establish. However, I was wondering about the 1814 date. You will know that later practise on bayonets and swords was to stamp on the spine the manufacturer and the date the pattern was approved. The question I am wondering is - does 1814 represent the approved pattern or, the date it was made ?

[terry1956]

As we said earlier, the French markings are sometimes difficult to establish. However, I was wondering about the 1814 date. You will know that later practise on bayonets and swords was to stamp on the spine the manufacturer and the date the pattern was approved. The question I am wondering is - does 1814 represent the approved pattern or, the date it was made ?

Hi Mervyn, my understanding of the date, is that it is the year and month that the item was pasted as fit for purpose, ie made and ready to go. so this item could of been made before 1814, but not after. michael

[ottar sande]

You may try this URL and see if you find the information you need there:

http://klingenthal.chez.com/presentation_marquages.htm

There are dravings of the stamps, the dates, names of the inspectors of Klingenthal Briquet sabres, - in French.

You could also try www.swordforum.com.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Thankyou Ottar - and welcome to GMIC. I am sure this information will be of help to many members who have French

swords and side arms. Mervyn

[Brian Wolfe]

I'm always happy when these older posts resurface from time to time as it not only puts them in the spot light for new members but also allows the older members to comment when they missed the original posts for some reason or another. When I say "older members" I am referring to the length of their membership and not life span, though that may be one and the same.

I have had these in the collection in the past, some with markings and some with no markings. This was a very popular design in the early quarter of the 19th century and found wide acceptance throughout Europe. It is good to see one in a collection that can actually be traced to a particular country. A friend and fellow sword collector, who has sinced passed, used to say that these were great swords especially when unmarked as they would fit into any collection.

In John Wilkinson Latham's book "British Military Swords", page 68 plate 66, he writes,

"Foot Artillary Private's Hanger Circa 1814.

This is a very common design of sword and was in use in practically every European army in the early part of the nineteenth century."

In the case of the specimen in his book he states that the mark on his sword in undecipherable but may be "Trotter".

I hope this adds some information to this interesting post.

Regards

Brian

[ottar sande]

B with a star above it is the stamp of Inspecteur Lieutenant-colonel Etienne Louis Borson, who started his services with the State Manufacturers at Klingenthal on August 1. 1814.

Klingenthal means "Blade Valley" in German, and there is a city in Saxony, Germany of that name, but in the world of briquet sabres it is the name of the Royal (later Imperial) factory of sword blades established in "Bas Rhine" in Alsace with imported workers and engineers from Solingen, Germany.

[MilitariaMason]

Hello! I am new to the site and have a question. I recently found this briquet sword at a show, but I am confused by the rings on it. I have never seen mounting rings on a briquet sword and, after extensively trying to research it, I am stuck. Can anyone tell me who would have used briquets with suspension/mounting rings and for what reason/purpose?

[Mervyn Mitton]

MilitariaMason - welcome to GMIC. I hope that some of the contributors on this post will be able to assist with your question ? Mervyn

[MilitariaMason]

Thank you, sir! I look forward to any information that people may have.

[peter monahan]

That is an odd one, no mistake. I associate rings with an officer, who typically wore a sword BELT as opposed to a shoulder sling/belt. But a briquet shouldn't be/ wouldn't be worn by an officer in most armies. However, as someone pointed out, this style of sword was worn by men from practically every army in Europe at one time or another, so anything is possible.

Are there any marks on either the sword blade& handle or on the scabbard? Most military markings have a lot of stamps, at least by the 19th century, especially on blades: proof marks, acceptance marks and often regimental/company/individual ID markings. Repros., of which there are many and some of quite good quality, tend to lack markings, the manufacturers not being prone to snap inspections by hawk eyed NCOs looking for stolen, lost or 'borrowed' weapons. Close up shots, if available, would also be a help.

Peter

[MilitariaMason]

Thank you Peter.

I have found no markings on the sword, but do not doubt its age or authenticity. I have thoroughly examined the entire piece and the only marking that I have found is a "D" on the second mounting of the scabbard. I may put up close ups later on for you.

Thank you,

Mason