Ribbon bar found

[Arnim]

Hello my friend from the Old Dominion, the "Cavalier Commonwealth."

I agree with most of what you say. Groups of like-minded gentlemen are hard to find these days. Even the word "gentleman" has lost its meaning, These days the word is even applied to murderers and child-molestors. But I digress.

By saying that one gets what one pays for I simply mean this: If you pay a low price, you should not be surprised to receive low quality, and convesely, if you pay more, you should expect more. This is not always true, but it is a good rule of thumb. This also applies to authenticity. These days many copies are as good or even better than the originals, but they are copies and they should be cheaper. There is a market for good copies. It is broader than the market for originals.

I like this website very much, but I don't have much patience for "stuck up" types with their noses in the air. I have been interested in "miliatria" most of my life and I am lucky to have had a family which "saved everything" so I have a large collection which I did not have to buy. I never had to worry about authenticy. I know where my grandfather's WWI Soldbuch came from and that my father's Iron Cross certificate signed by Admiral Frisius is the real thing. This website is a way for others to corroborate their items. That is a good thing; but it is not a good thing for members to ID an item as a reproduction and then attack the maker as some kind of charlatan.

Arnim

UVA, Class of '67

[Harvey]

I just had a thought my friends - what an experience!

One can buy American medals all over the place these days, and ribbons, devices and brackets. There are websites which sell custom0made ribbon bars. Are these fakes or copies or are they the real thing? I am a retired Army officer, Are only the medals I received in a box with a certificate genuine? Are the extras I purchased later fakes? I had more than one marksmanship badge. One was purchased after I retired. Is that one a fake and the ones I purchased at the various posts while on active duty genuine? Help me out here.

Another thought. My mother had a beautiful print, a copy of a painting by one of the Flemish Masters - is that one a "cheap fake" too? It is mine now. I love it. It is beautiful, but it is a copy. Why are medals and ribbon bars any different. Beauty is beauty and has value for its own sake.

Arnim

Arnim-

No, the pieces you purchase are all genuine, provided that they are produced by a licenced company (like Vanguard). I have put together numerous ribbon bars, shadow boxes, etc. for U.S. vets/retirees, and in every case I either used their own medals/ribbons or purchased them from a licensed vendor.

There's nothing wrong with having copies of anything - medals, ribbons... or even Flemish Masters. The problem is when people try to pass off the copy as the genuine article, which is usually done out of greed. The difference between your Flemish Master and the one sitting in a museum is probably millions of dollars. As a retired Army officer, how would you feel if I set up shop manufacturing Medals of Honor and then went out and started selling them as the real thing for thousands of dollars?

Copies are fine, so long as they are prominently marked/sold as such.

[IrishGunner]

Arnim, I think you are missing the point. I don't see that anyone is attacking a businessman that wants to sell copies, reproductions, are facsimiles (note I didn't say "fakes") - as long as they are identified as such, not only for the original sale, but for all future and subsequent sales as well.

I hope you won't take this wrong - my intention is not to disparage. However, most of us aren't fortunate enough to have inherited fine - genuine - collections. Most of us (and probably you as well) have to purchase items with disposable income (of which I'm sure many of us have less these days) and we don't need more challenges (no matter how unintended) in our quest for desired items. That is the point. The purveyor of reproductions and art pieces needs to accept responsibility for even the unintended consequences of his actions. That is all we are asking. If there is the perception that a merchant flaunts that responsibility, then he should accept the criticism and take steps to remove any doubt. That is all we are asking. If not, then he should also expect to be shunned by the very people he might want to attract as customers - assuming he is intending to sell his art pieces to the collecting public in the first place.

You are correct; there is a market for replicas. Look at replica firearms for example; clearly, those are big business - but also easily identified as replicas. And I for one will never own a genuine Pour le Merite, but have contemplated seeking out a nice replica. I'm sure there are other serious collectors who have considered the same. But I also shy away from sellers who are not part of the greater "gentleman's collecting community" regardless of what they sell - replicas or genuine.

Unfortunately, there are unscrupulous profit-seekers out there - who can and will take advantage of the reputable businessman's effort to fill the replica demand. All we are asking is for the responsible businessman to take steps to ensure that doesn't happen. Responsible is the key word. Simply arguing that a merchant has the right to take advantage of fools and idiots doesn't sound very responsible in my opinion. But to each his own. And each of us have the right to shun such a merchant. Like I said, I don't think you'll change any minds around here on this point.

[Kev in Deva]

The truth is that there are lots of "Gersts" out there' but they are not the ones we have to worry about. The real danger is presented by those who manufacture and sell fakes by the hundreds and sell them as genuine, whether they are ribbon bars, pills, medals or whatever. One can buy GMC or Ford parts or go to the autop parts place to get a copy for half the price. Who is to say which part is better? You get what you pay for.

Arnim

Dear Arnim,

The fact that there exists an official department to "quality control" the fake items in most countries and which warns the public that they are invariably made from sub-standard parts and materials and will not give the same service or last as long and in some cases are liable to contribute to an accident as opposed the genuine brand name articles.

Many of the cheaper copies & fakes being sold in similar copied packaging as the original designed further to fool the buyer, and its human nature to tend to look for a bargain.

As for those who make ribbon bars, they could use synthetic thread which would light up under black light, they could have the letter "R" stamped onto the metal parts of the ribbon bar, those making copies could introduce the letter "R" into the casting or stamping

but they wont because the majority of the items to be sold as originals.

You mention in another post American official military medals and insignia items, many of the W.W.2 era, Korea, Vietnam era medals are still in stock from the original manufactures, so there is no need to fake them.

Here on G.M.I.C. there is a commendable policy of warning people about copies / fakes many of which are being offered as genuine articles, many of which are Third Reich pieces, these invariably will attract the attention of the faker, both due to the big prices commanded by such original items, and the fact that as time goes by their scarcity on the market place.

People ie. dealers-businessmen have been caught out offering items as original, the same people have often been contacted and told their pieces are not what they claim, some have the good grace to come clean and admit that what the offer are not "original", others pig-headily continue to carry on ignoring any attempt to discuss their "abortions" with one clear purpose, to fool the gullible novice collector, its even more interesting to note many do not have the courtesy to offer a money back guarantee for their creations.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[Arnim]

I agree, my friends, that it is a noble thing to help young collectors. Collecting and preserving artifacts is good for everyone. Those who make a living out of cheating people by palming off copies as the real thing need to be identified and weeded out; and those who buy reproduction items, "age" them and sell them as artifacts should be flogged.

Again, I don't think that we need to worry about Gerst ot Quarterdeck. I doubt that they use "period" thread or even genuine brackets and ribbons. Their work, pretty as it might be, can easily be seen as copies. How many genuine Rommel and Red Baron ribbon bars could there be out there, and why do the cost so little? If I saw a Picasso sketch on eBay with a starting price of $0.99 and no reserve, I would be suspicious!

Yes, I'm very lucky to have inherited so much history. I have always honored my family "things," whether they are my Opa's medals or my Oma's opera glasses, they are a link to the past and this is what we do here - we preserve and honor the past and those who made it possible for all of us to be here today.

A final question. I have read so much about UV- and "glowing" fakes. What glows - synthetics, modern dyes? If I put all of my dad's and grandfathers' ribbons under black light, none of them would glow?

Arnim

PS to Kev in Romania - my father was in Romania with the German XXX Army Corps - he loved it and took lots of pictures! He was also in Bessarabia and the Crimea with your brave soldiers. Your leaders gave him the Crown Order.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Arnim

[Arnim]

Unfortunately, there are unscrupulous profit-seekers out there - who can and will take advantage of the reputable businessman's effort to fill the replica demand. All we are asking is for the responsible businessman to take steps to ensure that doesn't happen. Responsible is the key word. Simply arguing that a merchant has the right to take advantage of fools and idiots doesn't sound very responsible in my opinion. But to each his own. And each of us have the right to shun such a merchant. Like I said, I don't think you'll change any minds around here on this point.

You are right about this. There are high-dollar auction houses in Germany selling items puported to be genuine, sometimes even identifying the supposed original owner, which are made-up items. It is pathetic. More pathetic are "ground dug" articles, but that is another matter entirely.

Arnim

[ostprussenmann_new]

The guy who was trying to sell the ribbon bar was not "gerst." But after looking on ebay, it looked like his. I never knew that this posting would start this type of discussion, but I have learned alot from all of you. Since I have joined this forum, I have not bought anything without someone looking at it or giving their opinion. I am not as smart of this as many of you, but I think that we should be respectful to everyone's opinion. All of us have our own portions of Imperial german history that we are smart or should i say experts on, but we can all learn something. Young collectors are not stupid, but maybe a little ignorant (myself) on certain things.

Thanks

ostprussenmann,

[Arnim]

The guy who was trying to sell the ribbon bar was not "gerst."

Who is the seller who is offering it? Is he offering it as genuine? It looks far too new to be genuine.

Arnim

[ostprussenmann_new]

Who is the seller who is offering it? Is he offering it as genuine? It looks far too new to be genuine.

Arnim

That is what I thought. That is why I posted it on here. It was a while back now and since I have erased it from ebay. I do know the guy was posting it on ebay.de. Sorry that I could not help. If I see him again, I will post his name.

ostprussenmann

[ostprussenmann_new]

Who is the seller who is offering it? Is he offering it as genuine? It looks far too new to be genuine.

Arnim

I will say that some shady stuff is happeneing in Germany right now. I sent a medal to a man on GMIC over a month ago and it disappeared and he never received it, so I have to give him his $1300 USD back. I am quite disappointed. I have also been told that there is some fake stuff coming out of Czech, Russia, and China. It is a good warning to everyout there.

ostprussenmann

[Claudius]

A final question. I have read so much about UV- and "glowing" fakes. What glows - synthetics, modern dyes? If I put all of my dad's and grandfathers' ribbons under black light, none of them would glow?

That's right. Your grandfather's ribbons would be dark. Very dark. In fact the only thing that would fluoresce would be the "modern" lint that rested on it.

It is not a fool-proof way to detect fraudulent ribbon bar or medal bar construction because the would-be fakers have ways to compensate for this "tell". But it can be an important test.

[saschaw]

Colours like red and green may well glow under black light, although they are old. What to pay attention for is white.

[Arnim]

Thanks, fellows.

Arnim