France Perfidious Albion!

[Chris Boonzaier]

I dont really collect WW", and dont have a big interest in Navy.... but this group just blew me away.... this is at the center of one of the biggest tragedies of the war, one of those groups that when you look at it you go...WOW!

[Chris Boonzaier]

An action that must have left the men of both sides horrified by the events and the amount of men that died... and I am sure that when the French scuttled their fleet in Toulon a couple of years later, there were many who began to question the original action...

The little red booklet was given out to the crew of the "Terrible", it just opens up with 2 Photos, and is signed by the captein....

[Chris Boonzaier]

For the action the men were awarded the Croix de Guerre, the 1939 version.... Strange that it was not the Vichy one, but I think that did not exist at the time... but stranger still because technically France was not at war...

[Chris Boonzaier]

The document is a killer, with the action preprinted... I think there were 220 men on this boat, so I suppose it is kinda scarce...

[Chris Boonzaier]

He left the navy a month after the action

[PKeating]

This must be one of the "holy grails" of French groups, Chris. The "Vichy" version of the CdG didn't appear until 1941, as I am sure you know. So I suppose there was no option for men awarded the CdG for this tragic event other than the "Republican" CdG. However, given that France was not "at war" in any official sense at the time of Mers El-Kebir in July 1940, the award seems anomalous. Surely the CdG TOE would have been more 'legal'? I am sure some knowledgeable members like Vétéran (Paul), Paul Murphy and others will have comments. However, it is, as they say, what it is. The Germans were awarding things like the Lapland Shield and other, earlier awards for some time after the surrender in 1945 so the date of the Franco-German Armistice is perhaps not very relevant. The men of Mers El-Kebir would have been seen as participants in the "Guerre de 39-40" a week or so later, even if they weren't victims of a German attack. Remember this one, which has been featured here before? Awarded two days after the armistice. On the other hand, it is a 1939-1940 cross with a London-made "Republican" ribbon but the man got it after the end of hostilities. He probably received a 1939-dated cross. If so, he then exchanged it for the Vichy-approved version and, then, attached a London-made ribbon to it after the Liberation. These were the only official wartime crosses awarded by the French Republic. The 1939-1945 crosses were obviously postwar. Your man left the armed forces a month after the action and may have had no wish nor any occasion to wear his cross. There again, who knows? He might have applied for the so-called Vichy version, commemorating The 1939-1940 War as a sop to France's new German allies and partners. It would have been politic if he wanted to wear it at functions.

P

Edited January 8, 2011 by PKeating

[Paul L Murphy]

OK, so now I know who got this. I was watching it closely but the bidding went higher than I was prepared to pay, notwithstanding what a great award it is.

[Veteran]

I clearly remember the day we learned about the British attack on the French naval force in the harbour of Mers-el-Kebir. We were dubfounded.

This was considered to be an act of war and a croix de guerre was the normal thing if a "citation" (mention in dispaches) was awarded to a French sailor. The obvious one was the 1939 version which had been awarded since September of 1939 when (at the time) France was fighting Germany (and later the Axis) and this was still a war, this time against a different ennemy.

A T.O.E. croix de guerre would have been quite out of order : in those days, the three land-divisions (départements) of Algeria were considered as part of metropolitan France. It could in no case be considered a Théatre d'Opérations Extérieur. Which was the case for Morocco, for instance, which was a Protectorate.

This group is quite straightforward as far as I can relate the papers to the cross.

But this is a very complicated period, when perfectly honest men were fighting on either sides for equally respectable reasons. Making up ones mind about what was the right thing to do was far beyond most people's capacities. Things may seem clearcut to day to many younger people who are contiuously kept in touch with the news. In those days, news were mostly propaganda....

Regards

Veteran

[PKeating]

A T.O.E. croix de guerre would have been quite out of order : in those days, the three land-divisions (départements) of Algeria were considered as part of metropolitan France. It could in no case be considered a Théatre d'Opérations Extérieur. Which was the case for Morocco, for instance, which was a Protectorate.

Of course! I was however thinking in terms of the fact that the war was "over" as far as the French government was concerned. But yes, the bombardment of Mers El-Kebir was an act of war against La Patrie by a foreign aggressor and they happened to have a Croix de Guerre extant. That said, one wonders what might happen if some Caribbean despot invaded Guadaloupe and men of the French armed forces distinguished themselves in battle. What would Paris give them?

PK

[Veteran]

Of course! I was however thinking in terms of the fact that the war was "over" as far as the French government was concerned. But yes, the bombardment of Mers El-Kebir was an act of war against La Patrie by a foreign aggressor and they happened to have a Croix de Guerre extant. That said, one wonders what might happen if some Caribbean despot invaded Guadaloupe and men of the French armed forces distinguished themselves in battle. What would Paris give them?

PK

The war wan NOT over in 1940. An armistice had been negociated by the French but a war is over when a Peace-treaty has been signed (in fact it was NEVER signed with Germany for all I know). And the armistice prescribed that French forces were responsable for maintaining french authority in the overseas territories and other colonies.

This was one of the reasons why the French resisted when Allies (British, Americans, Free French) attempted to take over parts of the French Empire (Mers-el-Kebir, Dakar, Syria, Madagascar for instance). Which does not mean that Allies did not have good reasons of their own to do so, but the fragile balance maintained in what was left of metropolitan France between the German/Italian occupation and the "Vichy free zone" would have been endangered if they had not.... as was shown by the immediate occupation of that part of France by the Germans as soon as the Algeria & Morocco were successfully invaded by the Allies in 1942.

All this was very complicated. Considered such a long time after it happened, I can understand it does not make much sense. But those were the days.

Paul

Edited January 9, 2011 by Veteran

[Bernhard H.Holst]

Hello readers:

In addition to the very informative posts by Veteran and Prosper for anyone interested in exploring these complicated subjects further the books by Robert O. Paxton ( Legion d'Honneur in 2009)are highly recommended by me:

- Vichy France Old Guard and New Order;

- Parades and Politics at Vichy.

Due to my "Library" being in total disarray I could not retrieve a book specifically about the attack on French naval forces at Mers el Kebir in order to mention its title etc.

Of further, perhaps passing interest may be the fact that during the fighting in Syria where the 6. Regiment Etranger d'Infanterie was staioned while under control of the Vichy administration, units of the French Foreign Legion were for the first and I believe only time opposed to each other in hostilities. This left some bitter feelings in the subsequent internal Legion relations based on information contained in some literature.

Bernhard H. Holst

[Veteran]

Hello readers:

In addition to the very informative posts by Veteran and Prosper for anyone interested in exploring these complicated subjects further the books by Robert O. Paxton ( Legion d'Honneur in 2009)are highly recommended by me:

- Vichy France Old Guard and New Order;

- Parades and Politics at Vichy.

Due to my "Library" being in total disarray I could not retrieve a book specifically about the attack on French naval forces at Mers el Kebir in order to mention its title etc.

Of further, perhaps passing interest may be the fact that during the fighting in Syria where the 6. Regiment Etranger d'Infanterie was staioned while under control of the Vichy administration, units of the French Foreign Legion were for the first and I believe only time opposed to each other in hostilities. This left some bitter feelings in the subsequent internal Legion relations based on information contained in some literature.

Bernhard H. Holst

Bernhard

You are right about Foreign Legion units serving on both sides during the Syrian campaign. The 6th Foreign Infantry Regiment was the traditionnal Legion regiment in Syria. They were under orders from Gal Dentz. The Free French had the 13th Foreign Half-Brigade which had fought in Norway and joined the Free French when Commandant (Major) Magrin-Verneret decided to join De Gaulle, and his men went with him.

The stories I have heard about the fighting in Syria are that the Foreign Legion very cleverly managed to never be confronted to one another. When the fighting was over, Legionaires from the 6th Infantry were offered the choice to join the 13th H.B. or return to France. I remember seeing those who came back in France when they were on their way to Sidi-bel-Abbes.

Tension existed between some of the French metropolitan troups on both sides, and again in Algeria after the Allied landing there in November 1942. I don't think it affected the Legion very much, except possible a small number of French-born officers (serving with the Legion has always been condired by many Regular French officers the top command in the French forces).

A lot of silly stuff has been written about that period. Ignorance, make-belie tve, fantasy have all a great part in the nonsense. But one must understand that rewritting history the way it "should have been" is a great temptation.

Regards

Veteran

Edited January 9, 2011 by Veteran

[PKeating]

http://www.netmarine.net/forces/operatio/cimetiere-mers/index.htm

No comment...

Except that this reminds one of the desecration of the memorials to the Fallschirmjäger on Crete...