Am I missing something?!?

[taquito22]

Ok, just wanted to know if Im way off here... A 6th class kite (meiji) with box and rosette just sold on ebay for 513! Isn't that a bit much? Just wondering...thanks

[Dieter3]

In my opinion, yes. But that's just my opinion!! There's a LOT of stuff that sells on eBay that is far from nice for waaaaaay too much money. If it was pristine - sure, might justify that price. Granted, there don't seem to be nearly as many of these older ones as there are later ones. A Taisho Enthronement document went last week for $130.00 and in less than fair condition in my opinion. I don't think there was anything unique about it or the recipient, but perhaps there was. I think though it was a case of "noobie-itis". (These people would poop themselves 90% of the time if they knew how much these sell for in Japan after they pay these heavy prices!)

Still - I've learned to not question the motives of buyers, they've got their reasons. And if they've got the money, more power to them; congrats to the sellers - no fault to them for making good money provided it is an otherwise honest sale! God knows I've paid way over average price for several pieces I own because I HAD to have it THEN. Or there was some feature to it that set it apart for me, so I was willing to pay a heftier price. An item after all is simply worth what one is willing to pay for it! Got a picture of the piece?

[Tim B]

Selling venues like eBay can provide some really great opportunities however, there is a plus and minus side to buyers. On one hand, you can get some really great deals, on the other side you have other bidders that sometimes bid these ridiculous prices for one reason or another. Like Dieter stated, some just have to have the item for whatever reason and money appears to be of no concern.

I would agree in this case, the price realized was excessive. I have seen more and more bidders that appear to be "spoilers" and either drive prices up and then walk away, never intending to actually win, or desiring to win the auction and sometimes these guys get caught by being the highest bidder. Often they don't follow through and hence the 2nd chance offers. I often wonder how many have proxy bidders as well.

Bottom line; know what you're after, what the reasonable value is and remember that there will usually be another one offered somewhere down the road, probably in better shape.

Tim

[Brian Wolfe]

Ok, just wanted to know if Im way off here... A 6th class kite (meiji) with box and rosette just sold on ebay for 513! Isn't that a bit much? Just wondering...thanks

Since eBay is an auction house, so-to-speak, anything is possible and I suppose should be expected. I've paid too much for some items because I JUST HAD TO HAVE IT, and other times I couldn't believe I was the only bidder and the cost was very low. It looks like in the case noted above it was a day when there were a couple of "have to haves" bidding, for a change I was not one of them.

Regards

Brian

[Paul L Murphy]

The price was a little high, but only a little. The 6th class is actually harder to find than the 5th so any increase in demand for these in Japan will have a sudden impact on prices elsewhere. I struggle to find a cased 6th class in Japan at less than $600, which is why I seldom have them for sale (especially with the Yen so strong).

[drclaw]

Paul, do you mean 6th classes in general, or only 6th class Meiji?

I managed to pick up a 6th class Showa from Yahoo Japan. It was a little pricey at 29,000 yen (plus 8% for the middleman) but - from the photos at least - the medal, ribbon and case appeared pristine (will know for sure when it arrives ...). So didn't mind paying a little more for my very first kite.

Also picked up a 7th class early Meiji (cased, bow rosette) from ebay for what I thought to be a good price. Thanks to Paul's article on dating Kites, I could vaguely discern from the very fuzzy photos that the third wing feather was the longest. Seller confirmed it to be so so now just waiting for the package to arrive.

Gavin

[Dieter3]

Gavin,

I think that is a fair price for the quality, I'm sure you'll be pleased with it! I have seen several go for about half that, maybe a bit more in recent months that were decent, but not anywhere near as nice as the one I think you got.

To what Brian said, yeah - there are just weird things that happen at auction. Same thing has happened to me where I come across a neat item, figuring everybody and their brother is going to bid on it, and I end up being the only one, for what I felt were good prices. I guess it really depends on who want what and when. I think a lot of it is just the luck of the draw! Maddening I tell you!

Edited February 23, 2011 by Dieter3

[taquito22]

Thanks everyone for the input. I definately agree that whether it was alot to pay is going to differ from collector to collector. I am only basing my observation on what they have sold for in the past (at least from what I have seen). I was also watching a Showa 6th class kite with box and rosette sitting on ebay for weeks. Originally it was listed at 299 and had no bidders. It was relisted for a "buy it now" price of 350 for a 30 day period...it sat like that for 15 days with no buyers until the auction ended for the Meiji period 6th class at 513...the other was purchased that same day...I guess whoever lost the bidding war for the Meiji kite decided on a consolation prize!

[Tim B]

Well, first a slight correction is due. That auction was not a Meiji era 6th class Kite, it was a Showa era example. I'll post a couple of PIC's below to verify that. The Meiji style is different.

Price was way too high IMO, considering condition and like others noted, compared to other examples selling on eBay. It was just a case of a couple of bidders that had to have it and cost was apparently not a concern. The third highest bidder (out of 14 total) quit at $385. which was still a bit high, but certainly closer to what these have been selling for. I guess when you really want it...

There will be better examples for sale down the road.

Tim

[Tim B]

A closer look at the wingtips.

[Tim B]

taquito22,

Just a quick reference shot here of a Meiji style Kite on a 7th class example. Note the tips.

In several years shopping eBay, I have only seen two 6th class Meiji examples for sale and those were a few years ago.

Tim

[lilbit]

well, even in Yahoo Japan prices go crazy sometimes

one day I buy lot of 3 medals for 10000 Yen ... another day each one goes to buyers for at least 6000 yen each. Why? Because it is an auction.

As of Kite 6th class ... I see it all the time at yahoo auction ... sometimes price go crazy (in my perception) and it sells at 35000 ... sometimes huge lot shows up which includes Kite 6th, Rising sun 6th, Sacred Treasure 5th for example and it sells for 30000 yen. Someone who needs only Kite and doesn't want to bother himself with reselling items - just buys Kite and doesn't care that he "overpaid" another one might go for it ...

There are collectors for whom the value of particular order is different. For me it might worth no more than $200, but for someone to complete his collection it might worth $1000. As well, do not forget that not everybody can buy via ebay (blame computer literacy, access to ebay, whatever) ... and they buy from the local dealers who in turn buy from ebay ... I've seen those dealers web-sites and sometimes I sell directly to them ( Europe). Then I see what price they charge at their web sites - it is far beyond ebays price - and it sells out, because they have a particular order from customer who is ready to pay $1000 for lets say Kite 6th, so buying it for $600 and reselling for $1000 not a bad deal for a middleman.

Experienced buyers from ebay prefer to contact sellers directly and ask for particular awards for preset price, if both agree on terms it goes without anyone noticing it. I sell sometimes on ebay and have this kind of customers

Saying this, there is no right price for everybody ... and there is no right price in any particular time ... everything determined by supply/demand and willingness of buyer to accept it ... demand for Japanese awards went up for sure ... supply? it mostly the same it was because here are collectors in Japan as well .

[Dieter3]

Well, first a slight correction is due. That auction was not a Meiji era 6th class Kite, it was a Showa era example. I'll post a couple of PIC's below to verify that. The Meiji style is different.

Price was way too high IMO, considering condition and like others noted, compared to other examples selling on eBay. It was just a case of a couple of bidders that had to have it and cost was apparently not a concern. The third highest bidder (out of 14 total) quit at $385. which was still a bit high, but certainly closer to what these have been selling for. I guess when you really want it...

There will be better examples for sale down the road.

Tim

If I had to wager a guess, I might say that is an early Showa piece, possibly a late Taisho - thoughts???

[Tim B]

Hi Dieter!

No, not Tashio in this case and actually, I have never seen a Tashio 6th class example at all. Sure they must exist, but IMO, if any of these were actually considered rare in the true collector's term of RARE, it would be the Tashio era pieces.

Here's a shot of a 7th class Kite (Tahsio) and you can see the areas highlighted in red. Not the best PIC's and I really need to reshoot my collection and quit using these old file PIC's for reference as they just don't have the enlargment quality to show details for threads like this.

Anyway, note the following:

- Note the slight difference in the bird's head and neck; almost a bit fatter in the neck and less surface detailing compared to the Showa examples.

- Note how the longest feather tip on both wings is actually bent slightly downward on Tashio examples.

- Finally, and the easiest point to check, is the roundel on the shield. This roundel was present on the Meiji era Kites but is not on the Showa era examples. If you look closely at the piece that sold on auction, you'll see it is not present. So, clearly a Showa 6th class example.

Tim :beer:

Edited February 25, 2011 by Tim B

[Dieter3]

But what I'm wondering is how definitive were design changes as they relate to period changes, you know what I mean? Could there have been overlap on design from period to period, or within a period?

Here's one that makes me wonder: Roundel is present (hard to see in this pic., but magnified it is clearly there) and the wings appear different (looks like wing tip bent down on 2nd or 3rd feather?), yet this case bears the same styling of kanji as the other Showa piece (which I believe to be an earlier style) - this makes me believe it may have been very early Showa, or late Taisho as a transitional....?? No?? Or possibly the wrong medal in the wrong case?

Me is confus-ed.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2011/post-6375-0-83652500-1298667889.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2011/post-6375-0-42482600-1298667899.jpg

Edited February 25, 2011 by Dieter3

[Tim B]

Hi Dieter!

That's a nice Tashio era Golden Kite 6th class!! Is that yours?

Yes, the questions you are asking are good points and I have asked Paul sometime back (might be an old Kite thread here?) about this transistion period where cases/parts/existing supplies might have been utilized. If I remember correctly, Paul thought it more a case of someone putting the wrong case with the medal, which we see all the time on eBay items.

With that said, there is certainly a need for more information in this field and a strong need for examples with provenance to come forward to use as "solid" references. The other matter for me, that I would like to see more definitive evidence of, is the period differences on the Sacred Treasure "mirrors". I see these variations in different combinations all the time and some are pretty indicative of being original to one another, yet totally contrary to what we think is the norm.

For sure, an interesting field.

Tim

[Dieter3]

HA! I wish it were mine! Not so though. What I do is collect pictures from auctions for comparison purposes. Alas, these are super-hard to find with matched documents which would provide the best basis of comparison provided they are truly matched. Some of this I've been able to figure out to an extent (not so much in the case of Kites though!) as to what medals truly belong to which periods - granted, this is based solely on medals with documents, and then finding more of the "same" medals with like-era documents - enough examples and obviously you can start making at least good generalizations.

Still, this is tough to do since medals with documents are generally harder to find, and then you definitely have the situations of sellers mixing medals, cases, and rosettes in what are clearly perverted combinations of things! And of course documents that are clearly not matched to documents. (I got a clearly Showa 7th class Kite with a Meiji 39th year document - being sold as "matched" - DUH!) I feel bad for people that don't know better, I personally didn't care since I wanted both anyway and the price was O.K. - but that the seller would actual make such a claim, especially from a very experienced one that would certainly know better! Not cool - But i'm digressing....)

Definitely an interesting area of research, makes things definitely more fun and interesting in my opinion, having some element of mystery and the unknown to it!