Order of the Rising Sun 6th class in leather case

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Everyone,

As mentioned in a previous post regarding the 6th class Order of the Rising Sun, I have just purchased this example in a leather case. I've been told that the leather cases were to allow the Order to be transported more safely and since they take up much less room than the wooden black enameled boxes I am assuming this was another advantage of the leather case. Comments regading this are most welcomed.

Is there a way to place this Order in a particular era? I have included photos with the hope that if there is a way to determine this that someone will be able to help me.

There is a mint mark that looks like the kanji for the number ten (more or less like a plus mark "+"). This is located where you would normally find the "M" mint mark for the Osaka Mint. There has also been some damage as the hanger has been bent near the medal and ths has damaged the enamel. It looks like someone might have fallen while wearing the Order and the medal part swung upwards and this has caused the bending and loss of enamel.

If anyone could help me with these questions it would, as always, be most appreciated.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

This is the Order in the leather case with the case opened.

[Brian Wolfe]

These are photos of the medal.

First the obverse.

[Brian Wolfe]

Next the reverse.

[Brian Wolfe]

This is the view of the mark which may be a mint mark. The mark may not be the correct way up, sorry if I have made an error on the orientation.

I've also tried to show the bent suspender. It can be seen where the suspender meets the medal (nearest the table).

[Brian Wolfe]

The last two photos are of the suspension section featuring the Green Paulonia Leaves, with the hope that this may assist in the dating of the piece.

I also purchased a 6th class Order of the Rising Sun in the original box that I am confident is of the Showa era. I'll post that another time along with this one again, but for now I'll just deal with this one.

Thanks again for any direction you can give me.

Regards

Brian

[Tim B]

Hi Brian,

Looks to be a nice set here, shame on the minor enamel damage but, I think this is pretty common with those pieces that may have actually been worn.

My thoughts:

- Possibly a Meiji era example with the outer veins in the paulina leaves extending down as far as they do. If this is actually an accurate method of dating.

- I would say that mark is indicative of a maker, but I personally have no idea of who exactly. Perhaps Paul or someone else will know. Nice to see a different mark!

- As far as the true purpose of these leather cases, again, these are items I am not knowledgeable on and others seem to verify their use. I might add, this could be one of the reasons we see so many near mint examples still available today. If members used these leather cases to take on deployment, then perhaps the original awarded pieces or at least the cases, were left at home. Only speculating here, but an interesting thought, especially if one could acquire a private purchase medal and leave the actual awarded piece with the family for safe keeping. I actually see this practice still in use today and even kept my awarded pieces in their issue case and purchased extras for my medal bar when active duty.

- I see a lot of these Rising Sun medals with the enamel damage on the tip of the reverse top ray. I suspect, it could have been caused by the metal support of a medal bar, as the tip of the support would be rubbing in that specific area. If so, it could indicate your medal was at one time mounted on a bar.

Congrats, a nice example.

Tim

[fukuoka]

- As far as the true purpose of these leather cases, again, these are items I am not knowledgeable on and others seem to verify their use. I might add, this could be one of the reasons we see so many near mint examples still available today. If members used these leather cases to take on deployment, then perhaps the original awarded pieces or at least the cases, were left at home. Only speculating here, but an interesting thought, especially if one could acquire a private purchase medal and leave the actual awarded piece with the family for safe keeping. I actually see this practice still in use today and even kept my awarded pieces in their issue case and purchased extras for my medal bar when active duty.

Tim

The private purchase of Japanese medals was not permitted, even for duplicates. However, if one lost a medal (or had it stolen, etc.), another one would be made at the recipient's expense as long as proper documentation was shown. The price was high, though, probably to discourage the very practice you speculated on. Miniature medals were always made at the recipient's expense, but again only if the proper documents were submitted to the Japan Mint. If I am not mistaken, it would have been illegal to buy a medal even if one had been awarded that medal, except in the case of it being lost. I don't think it was worth the risk and subsequent shame if discovered.

Cheers,

Rich

[Tim B]

Hi Rich,

Okay, something (another thing ) I didn't know on Japanese ODM's.

So, then these marked leather cases were procurred separately just to carry the medals, if the member decided he wanted to purchase one of these privately?

I guess I don't understand the "shame" part in purchasing an additional award if someone was already entitled to (wear) it. We clearly see an authorized aftermarket for replacement awards in other countries. What specifics of documentation required for purchase is beyond me and probably depended on the source of procurement but, I can understand if the Japanese goverment forbid the outside sale as a general policy.

Considering that we see so many mint/near mint cased examples available on the market today and if true that unlike countries like Germany, Japan did not mass produce these ODM's in quantity but rather as needed, then I would assume most members must not have taken their awards with them once awarded? That would make these leather cases that much more scarce.

Thanks again!

Tim

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Rich,

Okay, something (another thing ) I didn't know on Japanese ODM's.

So, then these marked leather cases were procurred separately just to carry the medals, if the member decided he wanted to purchase one of these privately?

I guess I don't understand the "shame" part in purchasing an additional award if someone was already entitled to (wear) it. We clearly see an authorized aftermarket for replacement awards in other countries. What specifics of documentation required for purchase is beyond me and probably depended on the source of procurement but, I can understand if the Japanese goverment forbid the outside sale as a general policy.

Considering that we see so many mint/near mint cased examples available on the market today and if true that unlike countries like Germany, Japan did not mass produce these ODM's in quantity but rather as needed, then I would assume most members must not have taken their awards with them once awarded? That would make these leather cases that much more scarce.

Thanks again!

Tim

Hi Tim,

While I should probably not weigh in on this issue I will throw caution to the winds and simply wade in.

One must be careful not to try to relate the views and attitudes of one culture to our own.

Not to sound critical, however, at times it seems that rules and regulations in our Western culture are treated as though they; do not apply to me, are there to be broken or there to be followed as long as it's convenient to do so.

I say this knowing full well that I am guilty of all three of the about attitudes toward rules and regulation at one time or another.

I too have wondered why there are so many mint and near mint specimens on the market as compaired with British and German for example. It would be good to hear from other collectors in this area regarding this question. Perhaps another thread should be started to discuss these questions in depth? What do you think?

Regards

Brian

[fukuoka]

I guess I don't understand the "shame" part in purchasing an additional award if someone was already entitled to (wear) it. We clearly see an authorized aftermarket for replacement awards in other countries. What specifics of documentation required for purchase is beyond me and probably depended on the source of procurement but, I can understand if the Japanese goverment forbid the outside sale as a general policy.

Tim,

Sorry, but I wasn't very clear about that. The shame would come from being caught in such a crime, not from ordering a duplicate medal for legitimate reasons. Actually, in 1928, there was a huge scandal in Japan over the selling of medals. These were not duplicates, but they did go as high as 3rd class awards and also some commemorative medals.

I think that we see a large number of mint medals for a simple reason: most people never wore them. Civilians had few chances to wear medals, and military men didn't either. So most of the time the medals were worn at the award ceremony and then stored away. Thinking about that, yes, the leather cases are a bit scarce.

[Tim B]

Hi Brian,

I guess I have to ask; did you find my last comments or questions somehow derogatory to the issue? They sure were not meant that way.

Tim

[Tim B]

Tim,

Sorry, but I wasn't very clear about that. The shame would come from being caught in such a crime, not from ordering a duplicate medal for legitimate reasons. Actually, in 1928, there was a huge scandal in Japan over the selling of medals. These were not duplicates, but they did go as high as 3rd class awards and also some commemorative medals.

I think that we see a large number of mint medals for a simple reason: most people never wore them. Civilians had few chances to wear medals, and military men didn't either. So most of the time the medals were worn at the award ceremony and then stored away. Thinking about that, yes, the leather cases are a bit scarce.

Hi Rich,

Just missed your post and glad you did not take any offense to my previous questions.

I understand and if remember past threads correctly, Paul also had commented on that very problem of the illegal sales of ODM's. Completely forgot about that.

Thank you!

Tim

[Josef Rietveld]

So this does mean that the orders in this soft-leather-cases are awarded one's and these officers only purchased the empty leather boxes?

Unbelievable

josef

[fukuoka]

Hi Brian,

I guess I have to ask; did you find my last comments or questions somehow derogatory to the issue? They sure were not meant that way.

Tim

Not at all. But I did realize how unclear my previous comments were!

[fukuoka]

So this does mean that the orders in this soft-leather-cases are awarded one's and these officers only purchased the empty leather boxes?

Unbelievable

josef

What is surprising about this? The soft case is an accessory, not a necessary element of the award. In the same manner, the metal hangars, metal ribbon bar hangars, etc. had to be purchased. Nothing unbelievable about that, IMO.

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Brian,

I guess I have to ask; did you find my last comments or questions somehow derogatory to the issue? They sure were not meant that way.

Tim

Hi Tim,

No, not in the least.

No problems what-so-ever.

Regards

Brian

[Josef Rietveld]

What is surprising about this? The soft case is an accessory, not a necessary element of the award. In the same manner, the metal hangars, metal ribbon bar hangars, etc. had to be purchased. Nothing unbelievable about that, IMO.

It is not surprising but different from that i know from europe.

There it was common to purchase, if you could afford it, additional decorations for bars or for wearing - to protect the original awarded piece.

So for me, the idea of buying an additional empty box is always a bit funny also.

josef

@Brian, thanks for showing. i see no significant differences between the soft-leather-case you presented and the one i have shown here before. Only the pieces inside were different.So i guess, this cases have been in use for a longer period of time or again someone mixed boxes and pieces togehther.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Josef Rietveld

[Dieter3]

It is not surprising but different from that i know from europe.

There it was common to purchase, if you could afford it, additional decorations for bars or for wearing - to protect the original awarded piece.

See, I find that an odd practice if it was simply a purchase like any other without some sort of meaning to it. I guess my thinking is that decorations need to be earned by some merit, not simply bought. Though perhaps I misunderstand your point?

Granted, Japan Red Cross medals could essentially be "bought" though it was as a donation/membership (and also through meritorious deeds/services), and the actual merit awards weren't exactly cheap - and the funds went to serve a higher purpose. I don't believe that any other Japanese medal could be bought, short of some dishonorable, scandalous dealings.

[Tim B]

Hi Dieter,

No, you're missing the point that Josef and myself were alluding to here. We are not talking about someone that was not entitled to an award but, rather a person that has already been awarded a medal or personal decoration and simply, for one reason or another, wanted a spare, backup copy, or custom made piece.

In most countries, a person had avenues to go out and purchase jeweler's copies, have custom pieces made or engraved to commemorate a specific occasion, or simply wanted to have another copy. We see this pretty commonplace since at least WW1 and perhaps even prior in some countries.

Now, a comment was previously made that Japan was not the same as many western cultures and we shouldn't assume the same but, I would like to point out that during the Meiji era, Japan did adopt a lot of western cultures in order to become more modernized and bring them out of the shogunate days. This moderization included their military and the idea of actual military style uniforms and individual awards came about from western cultures of that era, specifically from the foreign military advisors requested by Japan. So, I have to think that not only did the idea of awarding campaign/service medals and personal decorations come from western ideals, but then why not also the avenue of private purchase items?

We know at some point, there were private manufacturers and unfortunately, some cases of illegally selling these to people who did not deserve whatever award/s they openly purchased prior to the government officially making it a crime.

Certainly, the common soldier probably didn't care, nor could he afford such a "luxury", but I think it's totally within the realm of others higher up in rank or standing in society, just as we seen throughout Europe and the US. My thoughts anyway.

With that in mind, I do see the point Josef is asking here. Why would anyone sell just a leather case and not the "set" of medal and leather case?

Tim

[Josef Rietveld]

Hi Dieter,

No, you're missing the point ...

........With that in mind, I do see the point Josef is asking here. Why would anyone sell just a leather case and not the "set" of medal and leather case?

Tim

Exactly, thanks, that was what i tried to explain.why not buy a set?

Now i know why: Some kind of specific japanese reasons

josef :cheers:

[Dieter3]

Hi Dieter,

No, you're missing the point that Josef and myself were alluding to here. We are not talking about someone that was not entitled to an award but, rather a person that has already been awarded a medal or personal decoration and simply, for one reason or another, wanted a spare, backup copy, or custom made piece.

With that in mind, I do see the point Josef is asking here. Why would anyone sell just a leather case and not the "set" of medal and leather case?

Tim

I suspected I was misinterpreting that!

Exactly, thanks, that was what i tried to explain.why not buy a set?

Now i know why: Some kind of specific japanese reasons

josef

Plus, now we know these leather cases were an accessory, and never original to the actual medals, only the lacquer cases were!

One thing though that I wonder about - what about the rosettes? You do see these for individual sale today, as new pieces. Who makes these I know not. But I wonder if these were available for separate acquisition during other times? Certainly people would have lost these and there must have been an avenue to replace them - but was the burden of proof still there, or was this considered too minor? Anybody know?

Edited April 14, 2011 by Dieter3

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